I... Oh... Well... Aw... Jeez

This is my first chance to post anything in days since my family has been visiting since Thursday. Although I now stick a pineapple in front of my monitor and pretend the computer setup here in the kitchen is just a modernist fruit basket, I rarely fool anyone. I practically had to beat my mother back with a broom now that she has discovered quilts on Ebay. While it is monstrously convenient to have Internet access close at hand as Steve and I debate the exact wording of a Simpsons' quote over our frugal evening meal; when company descends I am terrified that my prying family (or worse, Steve's prying family) will accidentally read my email. Or start browsing through my Internet favorites... ye gads. It's like hiding my diary in the guest bed.

My point is that I have been keeping my computer on the down-low, not to mention the fact that we just bought Steve a new computer and I spent half the weekend reconfiguring our network (which means I lost Internet access for both of us and swore a lot.) Otherwise I would have been back much much sooner to drop a deep curtsey to recently maligned Sarah.

Sarah, whom you may remember from my last post, returned to ye olde bloge, waded through the rather lively commentary that ensued and posted again. She was extremely gracious (go read it yourselves if you like - towards the bottom) and I am so impressed that I am practically speechless. Really. It was very cool of her to write again, and I am not just saying that because she ultimately agreed with us. I have to tell you that if I had posted something somewhere and got universally reamed for it I would not have the courage to acknowledge what I had written. I would put my finger under my nose as a rudimentary disguise and walk away quickly, pretending to be quite a different Julia altogether. So thank you, Sarah, for your composure and, for what it's worth, you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

The nice thing about a charming apology is that it inevitably leaves the originally injured party feeling ashamed of themselves. I am no exception. I made assumptions about Sarah based upon her original post and reacted accordingly. I thought she was a person suffering from infertility who thought our desire for a second child was misplaced and greedy. In fact she is pregnant with twins and simply could not understand why I put myself through this. It is actually a more sophisticated point and one that Julie and the ladies covered quite beautifully a while ago: why persist in the face of infertility/miscarriages? Why keep trying when it hurts to do so?

For me the answer is embarrassingly simple:

Because I think it will work. Eventually.

More tomorrow.

PS How long after embryonic demise should one wait to miscarry, do you think? I let it go for five weeks before my first D&C and I am not particularly anxious to repeat that timing. Since then I have tended to wait a few weeks after the heart stops to see if I will miscarry on my own. That never happens and I inevitably wind up with a D&C anyway. If you have any insight, personal or borrowed, I am interested in your thoughts. And don't worry about scaring me, scarring and infection concerns are both perfectly acceptable topics.

Comments

[DeAnn]

I'm so proud of Sarah and for you, Julia, for being strong and for keeping on trying and for opening at least one person's eyes (although I'm guessing many more).

[Julianna]

What a beautiful post to Sarah.

We are all here for some painful reason. I cannot imagine anyone reading the infertile blogs without pain in their hearts.

It is a shitty, shitty place to be.

Julia. I don't know you. I read your blog. I love you.

My heart breaks for you. I do not know that I could handle a miscarriage. I have no idea how you are functioning the way you are. If I ever get pregnant, I think I am going to admit myself to a hospital. I want to be bedridden and taken care of. I could not handle a miscarriage.

Perhaps that is why God has "blessed" me with not being able to get pregnant.

P.S. Given what you said at the end of your post, I would have a D&C. I have no experience but your past experience is enough.

[Lisa]

I had 6 of those stinkin' miscarriages, only 1 d/c- the last one, I couldn't emotionally sit around and wait for it to happen that time.
Anyway I usually had spotting/bleeding/cramping within a week and had it all over with within 3 to 4 weeks.

Never had an infection. Turns out I did create lots of scarring and endometrious though.

I didn't have a d/c the first 5 times because I hate HATE needles and I knew they would put in an IV. Silly that nothing else but that poke bothered me.

[Crystal]

Hell, why am I the first this time?

I dunno. I, for some odd reason, was thinking about this when you posted. It seems to me that the few people I know who have, feh, I hate even finding a non-horrifying way to say this, experience multiple repeated losses either seem to do so spontaneously, or not.

But since it's a rather, um, unusual I don't think there are any predictive studies. But based on your history, and my preference of a controlled, medicated, predictable medical procedure vs. the unknown (particularly for an early loss), were it me, I'd have to suppose I'd go for the drugs... Such a nice way to suffer. : (

Seriously, the only reason I think it's worth it to let nature take it's course, is later on, for the sake of holding a still-viewable if no longer alive baby (meaning, they caught it early). The risk of some terrible something that might further harm your fertility is slim to none, particularly if the termination is done by someone with years of experience in fertility or m/c patients, who does a handfull or two of these regularly anyway. And the earlier the better, as far as that goes.

Blech, once again totally unuseful, unhelpful.... But meant with all the support and affection I can offer.

Crystal

[Crystal]

LOL, well, when I started typing, I was first. : )

Such is my life. Takes me 4 hours (3? 2?) to type out such a silly post. Oh well!

[Suz]

Hi Julia:

First and foremost, I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now. Really. You are a rock star for the way you're handling it.

As for the wait it out vs. medical intervention controversy, here's my 2 cents: I couldn't believe my last pregnancy was really over, and having six months previously nearly been killed by an ectopic, I wasn't too excited about the prospect of another invasive procedure like a D&C, so in spite of my doctor's warnings, I let the pregnancy end itself. I have to tell you honestly, I don't know that I would go that route again. I felt fine most of the time, but right around five o'clock every day I was doubled over with this horrible pinching cramping and heavy bleeding. It continued for hours off and on each night - with me spending most of the time in the bathroom. I went on like that for three weeks or so. It was pretty horrible, not that the alternative is like a fun day of shopping either, but I imagine it is over a lot more quickly.

Regardless of what you decide to do, be safe and keep up the positive outlook. It will work out for you.

-Suz

[Judy]

You can configure a network? I thought you were one of those liberal arts types? My goodness. Between that, the organizational skills, and the metabolism of a rabbit I feel quite inadequate..

I remember (from my childhood) hearing (or over hearing) one of my mother's dear friends refer to a D&C as a 'dusting and cleaning.' At the time I had no idea what a D&C was (or that I'd ever go on to have one), but I think it shaped my frame of reference.

For me the D&C was the least horrible part of my miscarriage. Aside from the fact that emotionally I would rather have had the dead baby live inside me forever even if it killed me, in reality I think it was better not to wait and agonize over the physical aspects. That said I wasn't really given a choice, and the place I had it done was top notch.

I hope things are going as well as can be expected,
Judy

[Mollie]

Such maturity, civility, and warmth! I love it. Hooray for Sarah and Julia.

Julia, my love, I say D&C. I think you're leaning that way anyway, right?

[patricia]

Of course, everybody's different, but for me I waited once, and ultimately had to get a D and C because I couldn't stand it anymore. It was best to just do the D and C and be done with it.

I did ask my doctor about the scarring stuff, and he said there shouldn't be scarring unless there is an infection, which, of course, is always a risk. But the surgeries themselves should not do any damage.

Good luck, I am in awe of your ability to put two sentences together during this stressful time, much less your ability to carry on with determination and spirit.

[patricia]

Of course, everybody's different, but for me I waited once, and ultimately had to get a D and C because I couldn't stand it anymore. It was best to just do the D and C and be done with it.

I did ask my doctor about the scarring stuff, and he said there shouldn't be scarring unless there is an infection, which, of course, is always a risk. But the surgeries themselves should not do any damage.

Good luck, I am in awe of your ability to put two sentences together during this stressful time, much less your ability to carry on with determination and spirit.

[Krista]

I had five miscarriages. If you want to read about them link to: www.karpworld.com/blog/ then click on right side on 'achieving parenthood". I have the stats and the very last entry is the recount of my first D&C procedure.

My thoughts: for each other the lost pregnancies I didn't want to wait. I was eager to get on and didn't want to face cramping and bleeding at any random time in my life. Besides, I am afraid of pain and wanted to control that (which wasn't the case with the 1st D&C).

However, with this 6th pregnancy (that seems to be working) I had made up my mind I would miscarry naturally because I didn't want to face the whole procedure and O.R. staff again. I made up my mind how I would cope with the unexpected timing, the pain and aftermath. Since this never materialized, I can't say what it would have been like.

I was relieved that I felt some control with the D&C (decision) after feeling so powerless in the aspect of fertility otherwise.

I am not sure that really will help you, but my support is with you, whatever you decide.

[Ninotchka]

Julia: You're super, you know that? It's really a pleasure knowing you. I posted kudos to Sarah too. Posting again took guts,I mean, SERIOUS GUTS and I commend her.

I'm sorry that I don't have any advice on the m/c-D&C thing. I'm sure many of these lovely women will have valuable knowledge and advice to offer.

As always, you have my support!

[Libby]

Wow Sarah, that took guts. Well done.

Julia, you know I have no advise about D&Cs, but I humbly offer you my support and love. I love your attitude and I understand your reasoning. I also think that it will work, eventually.

Julianna, you would be surprised to know that there are some women that have not experienced IF or miscarriage that read IF blogs. I found this world when I followed Julia from a parenting site and I am glad I did. I have been very fortunate/blessed or whaterver, to not have experienced the hell that IF is, and reading these blogs has (to quote Mollie) "informed me and transformed me".
They've helped me be a better person and a better mother. I've learned what to say and most importantly what not to say when a person is experiencing IF or miscarriage. It has helped me to see the big picture, to appreciate every aspect of motherhood and to never, ever take my fertility for granted. Believe me, if I could, I would lend my fertility to all of you, so you could achieve motherhood without so much pain and anguish.

[Anna H.]

Ah, Julia and Sarah, I have so much respect for the two of you.

I don't have any m/c advice to offer you Julia, so am just sending good thoughts your way.

xxoo

[Marla]

I always had D&C's (4) because we had the fetus tested for genetically abnormalities ( products of conception). We gained a lot of insight from having this done, and it helped me with my grief.

Take car,
Marla
the middle way

[Carrie Jo]

While I have no experience with such things, I would think that I would want to get the D&C done as soon as possible. I certainly understand wanting to miscarry on your own and that would be ideal, but if you have a history of not miscarrying on your own, it'd probably be beter for your body (and mind) to finish the process fairly quickly. That is just my humble opeinion. And like I said I have no actual experience but I like having to think on these difficult topics so I will feel somewhat prepared for my own journey.

[Lisa]

I just have to say kudos to both you and Sarah. I think you both opened eyes and minds that were previously shut.

[Julia]

Wow! Sarah is one impressive woman.

As are you, my dearest.

As for the D&C question, I lean toward having it, since you've shown no ill effects in the past. And then there's the mental aspect: the ability to move forward would be nice.

Best of luck whichever you decide.

[Cathy]

Hi Julia,

In case you are interested, I came across a website run by a doctor who researches the connection between genetic problems and repeated miscarriage. There is a database that she keeps based on the info that women submit to her.
http://www.medgen.ubc.ca/wrobinson/mosaic/index.htm

I'm thinking positive thoughts for you.

Cathy

[chris]

Regarding the D and C, with my first miscarriage, I waited three weeks. When it finally came it was awful and I ultimately ended up with the D and C I so desparately wanted to avoid. I'm like you--I also just don't bleed and get it over with. Seems like it would be easier, I suppose.

The other day I was reading The Leery Polyp and I was really impressed at how she described her second miscarriage experience, how she treated it like labor because to me, my "natural" miscarriage was a LOT like the labor I went through with my son, except that there were no drugs and of course, no baby at the end. As I wait for Friday to find out if I have a heartbeat (I'll be almost 9 weeks and up until now I've just been to freaked out to go) this time, I can't help but think about that post, about her healthy attitude and how much, if things don't work out this time, I would like to follow her example. Unfortunately, the waiting is awful as well as worrying that it will happen while my husband is at work and that I won't have anyone to take care of my son. So, I suppose I will just go the D and C route if things don't work out.

I hate thinking this way.

Sorry you're going through this. You had a really tough time with the funeral and everything. Hoping things get eaiser for you.

[buttercup]

My first m/c happened spontaneously, very early. For my second I had a D&C to rule out genetic issues. My 3rd m/c I chose to let happen naturally. For me, it took a week after they realized the heartbeat was gone. I must say it was far more painful than I thought it would be, and took about a month to 5 weeks total.

If I had to do it again, I would probably go for a D&C just for the closure. It's hard to live with the daily reminder for so many weeks.

As an aside, for my D&C I chose to have a spinal block rather than to be under general anesthesia. My doctors were happy to comply. I was awake, and it helped me with my coping, and to feel more in control. Just so you know that it is an option.

Like the other women here, I want to commend you on your grace and dignity.

[gretchen]

My 2 cents...

I've only had one m/c, but on the day that they couldn't find the h/b (10w1d), I scheduled a D&C for the following day. When my doctor told me 3-4 weeks to allow it to happen naturally, I nearly threw up. I couldn't imagine stretching out one of my life's worst experiences over the course of 3-4 weeks! I don't know if this is routine, but they put me on a pitocin drip after the surgical part was over, and that helped squeeze out most of what was left. My D&C was on a Wednesday, and I wasn't even spotting by Saturday. I can't imagine waiting for nature to take it's course, but that's just from my personal experience.

I hope that you're feeling OK, and let us know how things turn out.

[Robyn]

That was a wonderful entry, Julia dear.

I hope you're feeling better. I have no clue as to what you should do except keep that kick-ass attitude.

[Jen A--Evelyn's Mommy]

I just wanted to say kudos to Sarah. That took guts, lady. And, Julia, you are an amazing woman as well for accepting the apology and not bearing a drawn-out, albeit witty, I'm sure, grudge. I can't offer any help w/ your D&C decision, but I hope you make your decision easily and peacefully.

Jennifer

[Holly]

Julia,

I am happy to read that you still have a gracious and kick-butt attitude. As far as the D&C is concerned. I think that it is a personal decision and one that I wouldn't have an easy time making myself (as a matter of fact, I have been fortunate enough to avoid it every time because I have spontaneously aborted those precious dreams myself - with the exception of the time at 18 weeks when I chose to be induced and endured labor to avoid medical intervention and then ended up with a d&c after the birth due to retained placenta. Without pain medication. I don't recommend that choice, though mine wasn't by choice but lack of available time to prevent excessive bleeding. Get whatever you can for the physical pain if you choose the d&c, which in your case, may be the only choice as far as I am concerned. God be with you as you endure whichever you decide.

Sarah, wow. I am impressed and humbled at your honesty and humility in your apology. I never commented on your comments because I couldn't imagine that you would mean them in the way they seemed, and I am glad that you had the uumph to own up and explain what you were trying to convey in the original post. May your pregnancy and children be blessed and healthy.

Many Blessings.

[Laura]

After my second loss I had a D and C fairly quickly as i felt it might be easier to get it over with. My doctor had said that even if I had let nature take its course I could end up with a D and C anyway due to retained products. I guess its a very individual choice.I have to say that after the D and C I had no bleeding and it felt odd that whilst I had been asleep someone had taken my dead child from me and I had no part in it. For several months I did wonder what had happened to my baby etc and it took me a while to mentally sort it out. Good luck with your decision.

[Dee]

You are so wise and wonderful, Julia. And such a strong person. Kudos to you--and to Sarah--for such grace during this stressful time.

As far as the D&C goes, for me it helped to go that route as it provided me with a quick resolution to end what was an already 'ended' pregnancy. I went in for the u/s at 6w4d and there was no hb, just a blighted ovum; doc gave me a choice to m/c naturally or have the D&C. He never pushed me in either direction but I chose to go D&C because I just wanted the nightmare to end. What had been so joyous just moments before was then changed, tainted, and I felt dirty...just wanted it gone.

Besides that, I chose to terminate an early pregnancy when I was 18 via D&C, then had another at 24 when I had a cervical polyp removed. I just had a lap/endo resection this past May, and now this D&C almost 2 weeks ago. I too am concerned about scarring but have been lucky not to have any infections. I know the risk is still there. But, in the end, the potential reward, for me, outweighs the risk and I soldier on best I can, as incredibly difficult as that can be some days.

I wish you all the best as you make this difficult decision. We are all here for you and sending so much love your way.

[Jo]

Ah, Julia, it fucking sucks that you have to pick. Hell damn fart. But as chris pointed out above, I did the waiting thing and had the miscarriage. It took a long time, about a month after we got the ultrasound, but the embryo was probably dead for a while before that. There's just no way to know.

And you know, I did it that way because it was meaningful to me, but that wait -- well, I was kind of numb. It was something I needed to do, but if I hadn't needed it -- I might have gone for the D&C too. Hard to say. It was a slow-ish process, with the bulk of it happening one night, and then about a week of on-and-off heavy bleeding. And then it was over.

Well. I'm thinking about you.

[Audrey]

Julia,
I'm a longtime lurker who wishes you so much the best. My "natural" miscarriage insight is that, after having had a scary uterine infection after my first D&C, I was very very reluctant to have another. So with my second miscarriage, we just let it go. My doc thought 6 weeks would be a long time to wait. It took 4 months. It was a very uncertain and frustrating time for us, but my doc said (many times) that the risk of infection from a natural m/c is very very low (b/c the amount of tissue is so small) and that it really is OK to wait. If you can stand to.

[Janis]

Julia, my heart goes out to you. Such a sad decision to have to make.

When my first ultrasound at 9 weeks showed the baby had probably "stopped" at 6 weeks, my doctor offered a D&C. Without it, he advised me that sometime within the next two weeks I would experience the worst cramps of my life, and that would be it. I surprised myself utterly by wanting to go the "natural" route - I wanted time to grieve and say goodbye to my never-to-be-born child without all the clinical invasiveness. And, having experienced the dehumanizing effects of an elective D&C many years ago, I felt I would heal faster and be ready to try again that much sooner if things happened in their own course. Two weeks to the day after that doctor's appointment, I experienced those cramps, and wave after wave of intense bleeding. Still, I don't regret the path I chose - it was the right decision for me at the time. Just as yours will be the right decision for you, whatever you decide.

Oh, and a tip about protecting your privacy on a PC located in a common area: if you use Win XP as your OS, set up a "guest" user account for, well, guests or whoever, and password protect your account to keep the snoops (harmless or otherwise) out. We did this when we had family visiting for a week, and it completely saved my sanity!

[e]

Julia, My experience left me thinking I should have done things differently, but thankfully I never faced that same decision again. I spent 4 weeks waiting to m/c naturally and at the point my doc ordered me to the hosp for a d&c, the anethesisia didn't take (not uncommon for redheads but at the time I wasn't aware of that) and my blood pressure dropped dangerously low. My post d&c bleeding was horrendous and the physical pain rivaled the emotional pain. which is saying a lot. During my later pregnancies I stumbed across ways I might have naturally caused my body to abort the baby (I was 9 weeks when we found no heartbeat, although one twin had died atleast one week before). I don't know if any of these things would have worked, but in hindsight I wish I had tried more actively to avoid the d&c. No one can tell you what to do, but for me those 4 weeks were a part of what I needed to do for myself. (((hugs)))

de-lurking to chime in. couldn't stand the thought of a d&c myself... so, waiting, waiting, fearful waiting. hippie chick friend suggested raspberry leaf tea, and despite my healthy skepticism (it doesn't even taste bad!) Holy-Mother-of-Tie-Dye it worked like a charm*.

*not anecdotally tested on squirrel-like metabolism, actual results may vary

good luck whatever you decide.

[Kristine]

First of all, it's so cool when something happens like the whole Sarah thing, and you realize that these sites really do help people to see situations in a different light and maybe even help them understand people in their real lvies that they may otherwise never gain such insight about. (sing Kum-ba-yah here...we're making the world better place!)
Second, your question: I miscarried quickly on my own all but my first one, and that one wreaked havoc on my hormones in a big, bad way, until they finally did the D&C. I don't know a lot about the possibility of scarring though. So basically I'm no help. Sorry 'bout that!

[Heather]

Hi, I'm new here.

I never knew miscarriage after you already had a child had a name - other than bad luck that is, which is what everyone said it was when I miscarried 3 times between our 2nd and 3rd daughters.

I'm so sorry about your baby. About all of your babies.

I never needed a D & C as my body just decided to do the job - they offered me one after number 3 when I passed a tennis ball sized lump but the scan showed everything had gone so I said no.

But I know that I couldn't have waited 5 weeks. I needed it to be over. But everybody's different so I don't know that my view will be of any help to you.

Every day I look at my youngest daughter and remember my other 3 babies. I've never told anyone that before because no-one ever wanted to hear it. My husband doesn't think it is healthy to talk about it / think about it - whatever.

I really hope that somewhere in your future there's another baby for you to hold - it's not greedy, it just is what it is. Children aren't rationed.

Heather

[Catherine]

Im wondering if you could use the standard EPO(Evening Primrose Oil) regime that post dates women use to kick themselves over into labor.Im sure one of your fans who visit here could tell you the proper amounts etc. You use the EPO gel-caps orally and vaginally and it seems to work.Kudos Sarah and hugs Julia! Off to do some more Hurricane Frances cleanup,Catherine

[Maria]

Wow. Sarah has guts. To come back to a board and apologize (especially after being called some really bad names), I have to commend her for it.

[B]

DOUBLE POST (ON OLD STRING AND THIS ONE)

Excellent! So glad to see that at least some of the world has not gone mad. Sarah, if you come back here (and please do) you are welcome. Things got ugly, but that made the redemption even better! Lots of amazing ladies here and we owe it all to Julia.

Julia - great gathering place and love your commentary. As regards your post-script, I typically would pass within a week. My 2nd m/c happened exactly a week after the heart apparently stopped, and it was 2 days before my scheduled d&c. It ended up being a bad one (hemorraghing, emergency, etc.) and so I'd recommend having a d&c early if it doesn't happen naturally. As for scarring, I've been concerned about that but had saline u/s to confirm things were okay. The earlier in the PG that you have a d&c the less likely there will be scarring/adhesions (so I'm told).

Take care and chins up.

B

[miki]

I know it will work too, even after 5 mscgs myself. I never thought I could ever handle this kind of pain, yet I am doing just that- amazing what we are capable of isn't it?
Miki