IVF.11

Steve took Patrick to the park this morning and brought the cell phone with them, so he was the one who fielded the call from Ydahs Evorg saying that as of this morning we still have 15 embryos.

"Is that it?" I asked. "Is that all they said? Did they tell us that there are 15 BUT 12 of them are wearing black and listening to The Damned? Did they mention how many are organizing badminton tournaments, looking bronzed and fit? "

"No," Steve replied, "they just said that there are 15 of them and they will do the embryo biopsy tomorrow morning and we should expect a call from the lab anytime tomorrow- day or night."

"To tell us what?"

"I don't know."

So there you have it.

Do any of you have any idea what the rate of attrition is for embryos as the days go by? I mean, if we have 15 today, will there be 8 by Friday? You have forbidden me to google it, so I am not, but maybe if YOU googled it and came back and sort of whispered it.....? Come on! 50% left on average? 25%?

In answer to your questions:

We are doing PGD so we have to do a Day Five transfer. That will be Friday, if there are any normal embryos to use.

They said that they will not let the acupuncturist come with me because they do not have a room available. This is, of course, absurd. Obviously there will be an empty room SOMEWHERE in their offices. I think the real issue is one of liability and that is fine. I mean, what if the acupuncturist accidentally stabbed me through the heart and blood gushed everywhere and then some of it flowed under the door until it pooled in the hallway and a pharma rep walked by and slipped in the blood and fell against a supply cabinet giving her wrist a nasty sprain?

Last night over dinner (before I excused myself to go throw up) my mother-in-law tried to engage me in a conversation about what I would do if I wound up pregnant with triplets. I said that the likelihood of that is very very small as we would only transfer two embryos and if one has been paying attention one would know that our having two normal embryos will be a fucking miracle in the first place, let alone the occurence of monozygotic twinning (is that what it is called?) and all three implanting.

She pressed the issue and said that she would kill (her word, thank you) one of the twins to avoid having the health risks associated with three. At which point my father-in-law, the psychiatrist, said, "What? No no! You don't want twins! You would take it down to a singleton pregnancy. Dr. So-and-so, head of Whatever-Institute, points out that when both twins are crying THE MOTHER ONLY GOES TO ONE. It stands to reason that they are emotionally scarred by this. You don't want twins."   

He then laughed and said it was unfair of them to be discussing this subject, as I was the only one at the table even remotely likely to be affected by such things anytime in the near future.

Ha Ha Ha.

I sometimes think they are both completely mad.

Doesn't anyone want to talk about celebrity gossip anymore?

Comments

[VHMPrincess]

They obviously have lost their minds!

[Cecily]

I am completely at a loss about celebrity gossip. Sorry.

Did the clinic have any insight as to why you feel so bad (other than the whole having 23 follicles puntured and ruptured the other day).

I think your chances are good, honestly, of having all the embryos. In my retrieval we got 35 (ack!), 27 were mature, and 17 fertilized with ICSI. All 17 were still viable at day three. We transfered three and froze the rest.

So I have the best of hopes for you. Seriously.

Is the gatorade helping?

[bj]

I think, I just think, that you're father-in-law might have been making a slightly off psychiatric joke, right? I also think, that he might just have difused your mother-in-laws "advise" about unlikely possibilities in a smooth and psychiatrist kind of way.

That is, I think he said "Hey Woman, you don't know what in the hell you're talking about and why do you think you get an opinon anyway" but in an upper-class doctor psychiatrist kind of way.

bj

[Ninotchka]

Julia: You are damned fabulous, you know that? Just in case you didn't, I thought I might let you know. :)

Thinking good thoughts for you, dear!

[elisabeth]

Oh the fun you could have with them though....I think you ought to announce at dinner tonight that you will are hoping to gestate all 15 of them and all of them will have names that start with the letter P.

And what a load of crap to say you can only pick up one, which would scar them emotionally. THAT would be the argument for never having more than one child period....

Did you hear Orlando Bloom is single again? I think I'm going to go shave my legs and see if I can't pick him up at a bar.

[jenB]

hey, orlando bloom and kate bosworth broke up.

and that crazy michael jackson....

ummm... thats the best i can do. :-)

[Cat]

The Naked Ovary kind of hit on enough celebrity gossip to last me awhile. Freakin' Britney...
Sending good karma your way and hoping bj's right about your FIL. then you only have MIL to annoy you and FIL to buffer.

[Sheridan]

This is probably a really obvious statement, but the rate of attrition does seem to vary widely depending on the permutation and combination of the couple's problems.

I thought the comment left on your previous post about seeing how IVF works on fertiles was interesting because I had never really thought of that. As far as we know, there is nothing wrong with my fertility, but my husband has a very low sperm count so IVF was pretty much our only option.

I'll give you my numbers: 31 follicles, 18 eggs, 16 mature - now only 11 fertilised and we did ICSI. That kinda sends alarm bells to me, especially when I hear many many great results like yours.

We lost 1 the first day, 2 the second day, then by day 4 we only had 1 really strong one and 2 so-so ones. Lots of fragmentation which really makes me think there is some DNA issues there somewhere. I really think that from 16 mature eggs we should have had more than 1 good embryo by day 4?

Anyway I don't want to scare you by the "one good one" statement. It really does depend on the combination of factors involved, and your numbers are sounding great. To have 15 embryos at this stage of the game is very promising - not withstanding the fact that you still have to do PGD.

(And in case you were wondering, that one really strong embryo left after all that? He is now a 29 week healthy baby boy with a due date of 23 April. Just one good embryo, just one transferred and here I am. It just goes to show that you only need one! The other two were given another 36 hours to shape up or ship out, and like good obedient children, they shaped up and are sitting on the freezer waiting for next time).

Yeah, in-laws. My MIL said it was obvious nothing was really wrong with us because I did fall pregnant after all. Yeah, after filling my body with so many friggin' needles, drugs, painful procedures, OHSS.....yep, obviously it just wasn't necessary after all. I'm sorry you have to put up with that crap.

Eagerly waiting for the next day's results. But you are looking pretty good to me. Hope you are also feeling much better.

[Melissa]

"Doesn't anyone want to talk about celebrity gossip anymore?"

Fametracker.com, baby. It's like crack.

Your father-in-law sounds like a hoot and a half...if he was Gomez Addams.

[B. Mare]

YES! YES! I have an unquenchable lust for celebrity gossip. There should be much more of that! For example, I didn't know Kate and Orlando broke up. I once heard Jonathan Ross (our equvialent of Letterman) describe interviewing Kate to be akin to "talking to a lamp post" which always makes me laugh. Oh, and I can I'll fill you in on some other more bloggy gossip (even though you may not be that curious) later.

Your in-laws sound a bit, um, nuts.

[Lisa]

I heard that Brad Pitt broke up with Jennifer Anderson because she would reduce any pregnancy over a singleton, because she doesn't know how she could handle two babies without scarring them.

[Lisa]

I heard that Brad Pitt broke up with Jennifer Anderson because she would reduce any pregnancy over a singleton, because she doesn't know how she could handle two babies without scarring them.

[Molly]

I am also a celebrity gossip junkie --

My two favorite sites:

Celebrity Smack! http://celebritysmack.blogspot.com/

Celebrity Baby Blog http://www.celebrity-babies.com/

The second one is obnoxiously well-maintained. Pictures of every celebrity baby/child/pregnancy you can imagine. If you can stand it.

[Bella]

Attrition totally varies. Our attrition rates varied from 25%-75% across our many cycles. Then again, so did our fertilization rates. Also, we never got day 2 updates. Sorry so unhelpful. Your numbers still seem great to me!

[Soper]

Orlando Bloom is as gay as the Macy's Day Parade. Gay gay gay. Hot, but come on -- he's gay.

Poor Britany, can't use her Pro Active now!That!She!Is!Pregnant!

Oh, and Brad and Jen separated BECAUSE HE IS GAY. I mean, come on, STRAIGHT MEN DO NOT DRESS THAT WELL. STRAIGHT MEN DO NOT DESIGN THEIR WEDDING RINGS.

I, er, apparently think all good looking men are gay...

[Sonetka]

Attrition is crazy. My husband I (both twenty-five, no known chromosomal issues) ended having 19 eggs fertilize w/ICSI, and by day three there were exactly three left which were still alive: two six-cells and a seven-cell, all three looking decent, but none of them having managed to become an eight-cell. I was a fucking mess after transfer. Aaand two weeks later...I came up pregnant. With a singleton, but so far it's made it to thirteen weeks. I'm still as paranoid as hell, and realize that anything could happen, but it's further than we've ever gotten before. I guess the moral of that is that attrition isn't necessarily a crystal ball of ho the cycle will turn out.

[Sonetka]

Melissa - I'm also a shameless Fametracker reader, though I don't post an awful lot. The thing is, I don't have a TV, so most of these actors I've seen seldom or never - and yet...and yet...God, it is like crack. If you really need some frivolous distraction, I recommend it highly.

[Laura K.]

Hmmm....no help to you on the attrition rates. I had to giggle at Steve not having asked any questions - Chris would have been the exact same way.

Clearly your in-laws have lost their minds, and the filters that keep them from spewing verbal sewage at the dinner table. I feel for you.

But hey, do you think Brad and Angelina are an item?

Laura

[Joy]

Don't you love the way husbands take the important fertility calls? Yours sounded just like many of my freaking-out, detail-less summations given by hubby. It should be against fertility law for the husbands to take calls regarding embryo progress...

And, as for in-laws discussing your options...well, let's just say you are a better woman than I! If I had to discuss my options with family, I'd be a fertility drop-out, no doubt.

[Judy]

I can't read comments right now, but what the fuck! Are your in-laws off their respective trees?

By your father in-laws logic people should not have more then 1 child. Never mind that they should not have 1 child and a job or a phone or anything else in life that could make the child wait 5 minutes before getting fed. I think you should tell your father in-law that you thought about his comment, and therefore would prefer at least triplets, so that (in all the mayham) the babies would not comprehend which baby was getting comforted first..

[Laura K.]

What - Britney PREGNANT? Ugh, that's all the word needs...

[Mollie]

Mad, mad, mad. All mad.

Me too. I am mad for you.

[Day]

On my last IVF cycle I had 23 follicles, 15 were retrieved, 10 were mature, 7 fertilized (ICSI), 6 made it to blast, and after the PGD, only ONE was declared "good." I mentally wrote the cycle off. We transfered that one back anyway and despite all doubts, we're still knocked up at 14 weeks.
Don't sweat those very good numbers of yours.
There's a good one in there...promise.

[beaver girl]

Your in-laws need to brush up on their dinner conversation, don't they? At least that's what Angelina Jolie said in US Weekly.

Hoping for the best for the embryos.

[wix]

1. they're both crazy.
2. make sure they get the embryos that are wearing black and listening to "video nasty". those are the ones you want.

[SheilaC]

Your inlaws are dreadful! Wow, I think I would have had to flee the table if that conversation had ever come up while we were in mid-cycle. Of course, now I'm a mom of triplets and so am very sensitive about the subject of "multifetal pregnancy reduction".

We did IVF with ICSI, our first cycle, and had only 10 good eggs retrieved, I think 7 fertilized. On transfer day there were 3 possible embryos: one okay and 2 quite fragmented. The discussion of how many to transfer took place with me naked on the table, looking at the image of the 3 embryos, and we had to decide right then and there.

(For anyone thinking about risks of higher order multiples, and selective reduction, please visit Jody's blog called "Raising WEG". She wrote several lengthy articles reviewing the research on this subject in December 2004. Excellent summary of the science and the painful decisions involved.)

We had intended to transfer just two, but they said the quality of the 3rd was too poor to freeze, and made comments about my diminished response to stim cycle, reacting like a woman older than my 35 years at the time... Under pressure of circumstance we agreed to transfer all three, and felt quite pessimistic about how it would turn out. And were very disappointed that there were none left to freeze.

However, I stayed pregnant, and at the 7 week ultrasound, there were all 3 embryos happily implanted. We were completely shocked! Unfortunately the first thing our RE had to say was about the possibility of selective reduction, and about transferring care to the High Risk Maternity clinic... it was a scary journey from that moment on.

Our triplets were born at 30 weeks, they are fraternal, and quite healthy now at 4 1/2 years old. So we were very lucky, and we count our blessings every day.

And yes, it does happen sometimes for clinics to transfer 2 embryos and get 3 babies. There are quite a lot of sets of triplets with a MZ twin pair, on the Triplet Connection, the results of IVF and other types of ART, and sometimes spontaneous sets.

Sending you very positive thoughts and prayers. Thanks for your great blog!
- Sheila

[Ana]

Your inlaws are just crazy. Keping my fingers crossed for you!

[Slim]

Lynn Anderson was arrested for shoplifting a Harry Potter DVD. She screamed at the police, "Do you know who I am?" I didn't--turns out she recorded "I Never Promised You a Rose Garden." Does she really think that ensures lasting fame?
Perhaps someone can rewrite Lynn Anderson's hit to cover the issues of IVF.

[-Blue]

I'm gonna chalk FIL's comment (I mean, I'm only one person and if 2 babies are crying then certainly I can only physically go to ONE OF THEM first) up to a weird sense of humour but your MIL? Sorry, but I'd say she was a rude cow of the highest order. Sorry. I'd've gone ballistic.

Hang in there. Lots of success stories here. I'll be thinking of you!

[Jody]

Tell your in-laws your hoping for results like those two women last year, who transferred two embryos and they both went monozygotic on their momma's asses and everyone ended up with quads. Then laugh hysterically and ask someone to pass you the salt.

Later, blame it on the drug cocktail.

I have no idea about any of the rest of that stuff you're talking about but it certainly sounds like NBHHY. So keep it up and all.

[Holly]

I am lmao at Jody's suggested response. Only you, Julia, could pull that off with a straight face.

Tell them to keep their mouths shut if they wish to discuss murdering their future grandchildren. What if Patrick had been a twin that was selectively reduced? The horror!

Best wishes to you, Julia. May you have sticky, beautifully healthy embryos for transfer day.

[cursingmama]

1.) They are Totally Mad!
2.) I saw a famous model at the Timberwolves game last Friday - and I can't remember her name.
3.) Since Brad & Jen are still living in the same house, do you think they ever visit each other in the middle of the night?

[Jaine]

I'd love to at least give birth ONCE while listening to The Damned...Dave Vanian and a baby entering this damned world...sheer fabulousness.

INLAWS SUCK.

[Anita]

Jesus H.

I can't believe that conversation. Loads of empathy shooting at you, huh?

A friend of mine had the accupuncturist go to her home afterwards. Maybe an option?

[Kat]

Julia,
LauraK from INCIID told me how to find you this afternoon and I've just spent the entire evening voraciously reading every entry you have made since May last year.

Actually, I sort of had to go stalking to find you... first I went to BabiesToday... no dice. Even Darwinfish didn't work. I knew you wouldn't have stopped writing (of course that wouldn't have happened) and ultimately guessed that Laura would know. Thanks to Laura... and thanks to you Julia for continuing to share all your humor, info, and the mundane so that I can read along!

I've stayed off the whole fertility/TTC/charting/EWCM/Robertsonian Translocation shit for nearly 2 years because, well... you can imagine... it fucking sucks! I've tried to focus on my now 21 month old sweet potato dd... but the last week or so we've started to just think about thinking about starting down the path for child number two. But who knows if we'll have the emotional fortitude to go through it all again. I think towards the end of my last PG with dd I went stark raving mad and had to see a shrink each week to deal with the daily stress levels.

I am so shocked by what the last year has brought you, with the loss of your dear friend/cousin Kevin, and your miscarriages.

I am also intrigued (I do not mean this in any condescending way at all, just can't think of a better word at this late hour) by your move to go IVF. No, intruigued is definitely not the right word. Informed. Your details about the drugs and the costs and the odds and your emotional response to it all are so helpful to me. Like you, my dh and I have never had any trouble GETTING pg, getting PG basically any month we had child-producing sex or whatever the correct acronym for that deed is. It's always in getting them to stick beyond 6 or 8 weeks. And the thought of trying again (really the thought about even THINKING about this subject) is almost too overwhelming. Your personal account of all this gives me more to think about, and puts IVF with PGD into perspective for me in a way that all the INCIID posts don't really do.

I will most certainly be watching your blog daily now... a daily dose of comic relief and information about all sorts of things like baking soda and baby poops!

I especially had a giggle when you described somewhere along the way how all Minnesotan's are from Minnesota and that you were, essentially, asking them about whether or not they were from the hood. LOL. Love your description of their clenched teeth, pursed lips... for as nice as Minnesotans can be there's a certain je ne sais quois about them. My husband and I just made a trip with the pumpkin to Minneapolis in October... stayed with friends in Maple Grove who, in their wilder, younger pre-baby days lived here in SF and became part of our lives. Well, since moving back home to Maple Grove we had only seen them 3 times in 5 years or so. This was our second time to visit them but our first time with the munhkin. I laughed out loud when you described the ECFE classes; my girlfriend takes her kids there and, though I trust that she has remained politically liberal, I think she's been a bit brainwashed by those play groups! Let's not get me started on what she had to say about BFing my toddler at 18 months old and having her IN BED with us, too! She probably would have been for it all if she stayed here in the Bay Area but I'm sure the little parent educator told her all the important things relative to ferberizing their kids and getting them on a strict schedule. And OH MY GOD I had to feign some lame story about not wanting to drive in the cold weather just so I could get out of dragging my toddler to Mall of America to ride on some snoopy thing. My kiddo preferred wandering around the front lawn of the hotel hunting for rocks and doesn't do so well with crowds. Anyway, I digress...

Well, now that my eyes are bloodshot and red from reading my computer in the dark long after my bedtime (well worth it, though) I will sign off, and be back tomorrow and will wish you good emby results.

All my best,
Kat
Rob BT 13:14 with 1 toddler now, trying to decide if we're nuts enough to try for another

[Kat]

Oh, and I agree with the other folks here. Your inlaws are mad! Insane. Insensitive. Ridiculous. Ignorant. And I can't tell you what I would say because I think the whole thing would have made me crumble.

Orlando Bloom GAY? Say it isn't so.

Britney PG? Oh god help us!

G'night.

[alison]

Sweet, I love celebrity gossip too! I just bought this cute shirt at www.chaoticcouture.com that says celebrity gossip junkie, a must have for any fan of the stars :)