Scarlet

Steve received an email this morning from a client (from a female client) that ended thusly:

"I am toying with the idea of meeting you when I am in MSP next week... if you do that. Or do you just stay a voice on the phone?"

I was standing behind Steve's chair at the time trying to cajole him into leaving his office for the briefest second in order to drive me across the river to this darling little art gallery which, I was certain, contained the absolute perfect Christmas present for his parents that we could buy and, in doing so, end my holiday shopping angst forever. From this vantage point behind the desk, therefore, it was impossible for me not to read the email as it came in and, having read it, it was impossible for me not to make a vinegary remark.

"Well!" I observed, "THAT seems a little flirty!"

He did not respond so I expanded my interpretation, "Toying? She is inviting you to visualize her toying with something? How obscene. And...." I dropped my voice to a husky contralto, "or do you just stay a voice on the phone? I mean, REALLY! It's tantamount to smacking you in the face with her panties."

Steve, bless him, resembles nothing so much as a peevish fifteen-year-old when he gets defensive, and in this instance he rose to form by assuming an air of superhuman patience tried beyond endurance and said, "Duh! She's MARRIED." Like that would shut me up. Like ha HA! wiggle out of that one, Mrs. Forensic! Not living on a rainbow-colored cloud like my dear husband Opie I found it pitifully easy to do so.

Married people, I told Steve and I will tell you (make sure the kids leave the room here, folks) married people sometimes engage in naughty acts with people to whom they are not married. No! It is true! The Bible talks about it and everything.

I am not, I should add, distressed by this email in the slightest. If you had ever had the benefit of speaking with Steve on the phone you too would be scheduling assignations. He has a BEAUTIFUL speaking voice, really he does. Melts you like chocolate, honestly. Besides, being on the wrong end of adultery is not one of my big fears. Snakes, driving in the dark, biological warfare... these things keep me up at night. The worry that Steve will start sleeping around? Not so much.

Not that I believe Steve is above that sort of thing (anyone who has ever stated with absolute conviction that Reginald would never ever betray their marriage gets my Nose Wrinkle of Disapproval: 1] never say never, honey and 2] it is so offensive to everyone who has ever been left sitting there like a chump trying to figure out how they were supposed to know the person they love and trusted has been lying to them) but he barely gets fifteen minutes away from me a day, if that. For him to initiate and then culminate a torrid affair I think he would need at least twenty. The motivation might be there, who knows, but the opportunity is sadly lacking.

The question remains, though, do those two sentences in her email strike you as being a bit warmer than professional courtesy dictates? Steve said I was mad (you must think me mad!) but... nah, I am right. He said I could ask you, though, so I am. All opinions welcome.

Comments

[parodie]

Email: definiely flirtatious. Absolutely.

I have (to my knowledge) neither been cheated on, nor cheated (that I'm sure about), although I may have had relationships that came close to overlapping... that is all. :-)

[Kathy W.]

oh yeah. megaflirty, actually.

[Ms Sisyphus]

Definitely flirtatious. But in that dweeby, "I'm trying to be cool" way, not in an "I want you to ravish me" kind of way.

hmmm. Well, yes, I've been The Other Woman. Then the man ended the relationship with the woman and began a new one with someone else. Does that put me in both categories with the same man?

And not to be indelicate, but at the very least, there was...overlap between Steve and husband #1, no?

[Anonymous]

Definitely flirtatious and crossing the non professional line. Been there, got the tshirt, get rid of her NOW!

[Polichick]

Flirty, and worded entirely unprofessionally.

[Dillygirl]

Keep an eye on that woman! She's trying to be a tease and I agree with Polichick... very unprofessional.

My husband and I like to be cautious with co-workers and friends of the opposite sex. Whenever possible we include a third person to keep from being in situations where we're alone. In my opinion, if Mrs. Toying wants to meet Steve maybe it should be out to dinner with you in attendence? And maybe you could accidentally kick her under the table?

Two glasses of wine in, and despite the fact that my ISP address (is that a thing?) is showing to you, it is not showing to the rest of the world, and apparently I trust your discretion. That said, this is going to be quite dull.

a) I am a past cheater. Twice over, no less. Which might've clued me in to the fact that I was trying to leave the relationship. Three years later, I left the relationship. Yeah, my "EQ" ain't that high.

b) I am fairly sure I am currently neither, though I recognize the potential for future cheat*ness.

c) The email was totally flirty. Sounds exactly like something I would've said, back in the day. Toying my ass.

[shannon]

The email was flirty to be sure. And yes, quite unprofessional.

I am most definitely NOT a cheater. Cheated once on a college boyfriend while away for a junior year abroad (yes once--in a whole year away when I was 21 years old!) and regretted it like the dickens. Never did it again, never will.

Haven't been sexually cheated on, but have been painfully betrayed--more painfully than sex would have been, I think.

My partner has been cheated on a few times and is also not a cheater, herself, which is nice to know. Neither of us are the jealous type either.

We just figure if we ever want to have a fling with someone else badly enough, we'll have to own up to it and break up, rather than lie in an attempt to have our cake and eat it too.

[Laura]

yep, totally flirty. Why doesn't he just invite her over for dinner with the family ... that might just change her cheatin' ways

[Linda]

Ran said email past my 16 yo daughter. Her comment: "It's like she said, Hi! Do me!"
From the mouths of babes...

[Kira]

It wasn't just flirty, it was an overture.
Ick.

[jessica_deva]

Flirty... but maybe that's just her style. Some women smooth the way by using their sexuality - it isn't necessarily a sign that she actually wants to do anything about it. That said, I would have had the same vinegary tone with my husband had he been the recipient. (And, no, I've never been a cheater.)

[carrie]

Definitely flirty. Saw it before you even asked.

[MFA Mama]

Eeeeeeew she was FISHING! Very flirtatious. Highly suspect. And as far as old Steve-o is concerned...my husband and I have been in a similar situation (female co-worker poured out tale of woe to him and roped him into helping her move, wanted him to come over again and again to arrange furniture, I pointed out that--duh!--she was hitting on him, and he was all "nawwwww") and I'm not sure their amused denial is entirely innocent. My husband hates adultery and adulterers with a passion (having himself been a cheatee in a past marriage) and has never given me reason to doubt him, but I think it was doing his ego good to have this woman throw herself at him. Ignorance, schmignorance, I say...

[Shelly]

Flirting all the way! Saw it before I finished the sentence. Need to get rid of her.fast.

I have never cheated. Never thought of cheating. Never will.

I have been cheated on my former immature boyfriends and unfortunately my DH. I knew before he told me. He was shocked I knew when I confronted. It all hurt like hell for sometime, but I took him back and he has kept his promise not to mess around...I would know the moment he did and he would be missing some hardware.

Get rid of her!

[Jesse]

So just to make sure that I am not just a biased female who is immediately suspicious of all other women, I objectively asked my husband if he received an email from a female coworker or client and it said that, what would he think? His immediate response, without prompting, was, "Wow, it really sounds like she's hitting on him. If she just wanted to meet on a professional level, it would be worded more like, 'I'm going to be in town next week sometime. If you have time, perhaps we could meet for lunch and discuss XYZ business."
Toying with the idea indeed. She's toying with having an affair. Tell your husband that a great test of this would be to invite her over to dinner at your house and see what she says. Smart money is on her making up an excuse OR if she's a truly brazen hussy as I think she may be, she'll come back with a comment like, "I was thinking we could go somewhere a bit more...quiet."

[Krissy]

It's a come-on that's just subtle enough that she can blow it off as being just slightly innapropriate if Steve calls her on it. She has handed him AN OPENING (ahem), and is hoping he takes it. If he doesn't, she'll assure herself she was only being "flirty".

I've been the other woman, in a past life. Not to a marriage, but close enough. Ick. Ick ick ick. It's certainly not something I'm proud of. In fact, I'm rather violently ashamed of it.

I am not now and adulterer and I feel 99% certain that at this moment I'm not being cuckolded. (can women be cuckolded?)

My father was a cheater. He's reformed, but, again, Ick.

My husband is cute and gets hit on all the time. He generally comes home, shows me the phone number, throws it out and laughs. I have an ex who periodically gets in touch with me "just, you know, to say hi" and I show my husband the email and delete it in front of him.

Interestingly, lately I was questioning my bisexuality and how that plays into a manogamas (crap.. I can't spell it for some reason) marriage, and was considering joining a mailing group privately to try and figure it out.

In the end I rejected the idea because it was, in it's essence, unfaithful. Anything that affects our marriage should include him and if it can't, then something's wrong with it.

Tell Steve, if he must, to reply with "My wife and I would LOVE to have you over for dinner!", and watch what happens.

[Terry]

Not a cheater.

Just a lurker who loves you & your writing.

O.k. Flirty, unprofessional woman sending the email? I can't stand that she thinks she's being clever & that she has a chance for ANYTHING -- that's what's annoying. You know -- women who think WE'RE the stupid ones? My, by my seeming bitterness, one would think I'd been cheated on. . . Never, I just get so tired of shallow, unethical women. . .

[cai]

Ibid on the flirty and unprofessional...but, you know, you could have fun composing a nice little email to send back, non?

[offthetwig]

Took me 2 seconds to read it and less than half to think, 'dude, I hope she gets her ass jumped.'
Ditto on the writing an interesting response; too bad you can't forward it and her original email to her workplace and even her husband.
What a pathetic bitch.

[christie]

Fishing is the perfect term MFA!!!! She was throwing out the bait to what she'd reel back....I think you need to stick a pair of your panties on the hook with your name and the words "ya know, his WIFE you BITCH" across the crotch....

I have never cheated, had the honor of being cheated on by the ex...talk about hind sight...I accused him of having an affair (which of course he denied), later discovered the night I'd asked him was the night after he'd first committed the "deed" with her...my instincts were good, I'm just too stupid to trust 'em (or to call a lunatic a bald faced liar and start a holy war).

Anyway, I say go postal on the hooch.

[justamom]

"toying" is not a word you would use in a business conversation. that is weird.

she is an idiot...can you husband find a way for her to lose her job for sexual harassement???

[adrienne]

"Relationships that came close to overlapping" - I love it! It sounds just a little too familiar. I don't think I've ever cheated - but I've come way too close to that line to ever want to return to the vicinity again.

Invite her over for dinner if for no other reason than to teach her a lesson - and make sure you enjoy every single slightly uncomfortable but superficially pleasant moment of it. Turn the knife as much as you can!

You're such a talented writer, Julia. I didn't even have anything that original to add to the discussion but felt compelled to finally come out of hiding!

[Caroline]

Yeah. "Hi, do me!" about sums it up.

I haven't been cheater or cheatee that I know of, but I did flirt WAY hard with this one guy once who WAS in a relationship at the time. So not proud of that now! I had a college "friend" who basically slept with everyone male and attached she ever met; she would get the guy hard-core in love with her and then blow him off. It was like watching Sherman march through Georgia. Not pretty!

[Ms. Lady]

Yeah, I've been cheated on a few times. Once was after I had cheated first (we were teenagers)

Second time got cheated on "for real" when my then husband had an affair with someone he worked with.

I've also been the cheater. Numerous times if you count one-time-kissing in my teen and early twenties.

I've also been the other woman and have had a serious long term affair with a married man. :( Don't feel great about it, but there you go.

Having been there on all sides, I'll say this. Most men own up to "emotional affairs" but never come clean, in *my experience* as the cheated on wife, and as the other woman, both men said the affair was "emotional"-- both men (my husband and later *the* husband I hooked up with) were categoricallly lying.

As for the email- totally flirtatious and completely obvious and not very smooth I might add.

[Anyabeth]

I agree with whomever said she was giving him an opening. That is a classy flirty move that lets him make the first move and an oblivious guy would never think anything of it.

I have never cheated but was inadvertently the "other woman" when I was younger.

A few phone calls from the wife will give you a whole new outlook on that nice guy that takes you places but always has you call his office.

[Janonymous]

"toying with"=too playful

"the idea of meeting you"=like it's an online dating service? You'd say "hoping to meet with you" to a colleague.

"if you do that"="what else will you do with me?"

I agree she's fishing to see if he's interested. Unprofessional and clumsy. I think you should have her over for dinner and YOU be the one to flirt with her.

Cheating? My boyfriend prior to DH started dating someone else before he got up the nerve to end it with me. I was not fooled. I have always been faithful--if I was interested in someone else, I'd move on. In marriage, I have absolutely no interest in cheating. And if hubs did, I've have to stand in line to kill him, behind my parents and HIS.

Jan

[anon]

Have your hubby write back: "my wife and I would be delighted to meet you for lunch."

That'll shut her up good.

[Lisa]

I think if I were Steve (and convinced of the intended flirtiness), I would tell her that I didn't intend to just stay a voice on the phone... I wanted to become just a name in the inbox.

[Jessica]

Me: If a guy got this e-mail (points to Julia's blog) from a woman client what would you think?)

Husband: Uh, sounds like she's trying to hit on him?

Yes, dear. :)

[Sunny]

Haven't read any above posts, didn't want to rotate own responce around others' comments. Here is own experience RE: cheating..

Long long ago, in a high school far, far away, I had a terrible fight with best friend at time. Was angry with her for being bulemic and choosing to shoehorn herself into an intimate relationship with my then-boyfriend by "confessing" to him. Was feeling down and out. Many thoughts such as, "Why should I be so self-indulgent (ie: eating) when BFF is denying herself?" Also, she was very skinny after throwing up food and I was shallow in HS. Made me feel like utter poo, it did. Then broke up with boyfriend, whom I wasn't All That Fond Of To Start. And thus, when the boyfriend of said BFF came to me and tried to seduce me/fanagle hisself into my panties, I was in a weakened state and thought it a source of comfort. Then started dating Other Guy, whom I actually really did like, really, but because he wasn't (at all) physical with me (no tongue kissing, even), I felt slightly rejected and went back to the BFF's BF. (See, self? You are attractive/desirable/deserving of food!) Sad state of affairs, there, and it went on for months (no doubt fueled by subconscious fury at BFF). It was terrible, it was sad, and it was never found out. After months of this, I found out my Other Guy had been sleeping with my BFF for quite some time, and we all had a love-square-falling-out. It's all the sort of thing one's parents have nightmares about, to be honest. Still friends with Other Guy, though, so something good did come of it all.

I was planning on posting anon, but I think that although it's humiliating, I really don't have anything to hide anymore. It was high school, for godssake. Haven't cheated since.

I have to say, if I happened to read an email (innocently!) of my husbands and read those two sentances, I would take the same road you did. (And my husband used to be in radio - he's got a voice like butta. Butta, I tell you!) In fact, I once accompanied him to get a haircut, and the Haircutting Girl was Very Flirty with him - I did not let him forget about that for a few days.

The woman was Very Flirty with Steve, too, and it makes me wonder about her intentions. Steve knows she's married, does she know that HE is? One has to wonder.

I think that most everyone is a cheater/has been cheated on at one point in their lives. But it makes us stronger/smarter/less prone to believe any-old thing that comes out of our lovers' mouths. I suppose you could reword that to say it makes us harder/more cynical/bitter, but it all depends on perspective, that's what I say!

[terri c]

definitely hitting on him. I like the idea of you AND Steve meeting her and YOU flirting with her.

[Jack]

Been a cheater and she's coming on to him for sure.

I used to work with this guy who had the most sexy, velvety smooth voice ever. I'd hear him having flirty conversations all the time. He was so very, very unattractive though. I used to imagine the girls getting off the phone and discussing his gorgeousness with their co-workers and often wondered if he met up with any of them. They would have been sorely disappointed.

I'm not suggesting for one moment that Steve isn't a big hunk... but this email tart is taking a risk inviting a voice to 'do' her! I agree that you and Steve should both meet up with her - then you can tell us all about it! Would Steve go for that though?

[Izabela]

Oh, yeah. You flirting with her. Delicious. The cringe factor. Wouldn't it be nice :)

[Lisa Mae]

Aged 19 - lied to my caveman boyfriend about whether I was having sex with Stunted Sex Dwarf.

Aged 21 - lied to my friends-with-benefits about whether I was having sex with The Love Of My Life.

Aged 23 - The Love Of My Life fell out of love with me. During painfilled breakup, lied to The Love Of My Life about whether I was having sex with Engaged Beautiful Man. EBM's fiance found out about us, all hell broke loose, EBM and I ended up together and happy until...

Aged 24 - lied to Beautiful Man about whether I was having sex with Famous Musician. Left him for Famous Musician, eventually.

Aged 24 - lied to Famous Musician about whether I was having sex with Beautiful Man. Left him, went back to Beautiful Man.

Aged 25 - lied to Beautiful Man about whether I was having sex with Famous Musician. Again. BM found out, heartbroken, many tears and recriminations, it turned out BM had been lying to me about whether he was having sex with Tiny Japanese Girl.

Now all is well. Cheating is exhausting!

[Kathleen999]

Oy! Some people really know how to complicate their lives!

Not a cheater but have been cheated on. I could see myself cheating with no problems as long as I didn't hurt anyone, but the truth is, eventually someone always gets hurt, even if it's only your own conscience.

The woman is definitely fishing. Here's what Steve should write back:
When my wife saw your email, she thought that meeting you was a great idea! Why don't you come for dinner to our house when you are in town and you can meet our son as well. It's always nice to be able to put a face to the voice, and my wife and I are looking forward to meeting you!
----------
There's lots in there for her to know that he is not interested in hanky-panky, and that his wife reads his emails! Hah! Put a stopper on her nasty little plans.

[dangermouth]

I have been cheatee and then responded by becoming a cheater. And I'm a flirt.

That woman may or may not have thoughts of adultery in her mind, but she's totally flirting her ass off.

[Kay]

Heh... Wow... lots of "oh, never never, I would nevah!" going on here.

Guess I'm the ho here... In the day, I was a big-time "don't leave the current until there's a new one on the hook." The theory, of course, being that any boyfriend was better than no boyfriend.

Yes, I cheated. Often. With disturbing frequency, even... to that degree, I have very little sympathy with the idiots who actually had an affair with me, then later dated me, and then later were Completely Shocked when they found out I wasn't being faithful to them *either.* Men and their egos, I swear to god, what makes you so special? Maiden and the scorpion... you knew what I was when you picked me up. Now you're surprised you got stung? Idiot.

I'm not saying my behavior was 'good' or that it was 'fair', but really, I have trouble sympathizing with people who know what they're getting into and then get into it anyway. You want a faithful girlfriend? Then don't start dating one that you know has a boyfriend. Yeeesh.

That being said, I finally got bit back... the one guy that I was faithful to ditched me out for my best friend. I also spent about six months after him being single... discovered really, that I didn't need to base my life around a man, and have been happier for it.

My husband and I have been together now (we were both single - really! - when we started dating) for almost 10 years and all that is behind me. I have a couple of online "friends" with whom I conduct virtual affairs (yes, he knows, no he doesn't care) and he has a large collection of internet porn (yes, I know, no I don't care) and I think that takes care of any particular urges in that direction.

I do think people are over-reacting. So what if she was flirting? That's not your problem... if he does something about it, that's your problem.

[Samara]

Email - definitely flirty - Why do guys never see this? That was almost a direct overture for him to play with her and her toys... ARGGGG

As for cheating... been cheated on... found out reading his email (yes, I'm a snoop - don't care) he of course denied... denied... denied... broke up - got back together - he confessed Christmas day... stayed together until about 6 months later... cheated again this time with a prof - and they are now married and living in North Dakota - total wanker by the way...

My husband has been cheated on as well... so we have a very strict policy on flirtations, etc. He knows who I flirt with - Dr. Ortho Hottie - also known as the man that I had a dream that he asked me to be with him while in bed with then bf now husband... and screamed out NO... (sorry totally faithful even in my dreams - okay it was a nightmare) and he knows I still snoop in his email... every now and then an ex girlfriend from his past rears her ugly head... I have to admit to being just a tidge jealous of this woman - a) she's blonde, b) she's taller than me, and c) she has a child... I of course am a) a brunette, b) short, and c) have not managed to stay knocked up longer than oh 5 weeks...

So that's my story... been cheated on never cheated on anyone...

PS - tell Steve you were right!!!
Sam

[Marie]

May I be the lone voice of dissent here?

The message is flirtatious in tone, yes. But she is not hitting on Steve so much as inviting him to hit on her. Sadly, there are still women who flirt in business contexts purely in order to advance their business agenda, and given that what you quote here was just part of a message, rather than an email in itself, I'd put her down as one of those pathetic sorts rather than a hitter-onner. I don't think it's worth the effort and stress of getting cross with her.

[Emily]

Email was definitely over the line. Flirty my ass, she did everything but wear her panties around her neck. I say this having been cheated on in the past by my ex. The women who he cheated with would do the same kind of shit and when I would say something I was always told I was over reacting. Yeah, my ass. My husband, bless his heart, doesn't even notice when women are hitting on him -- which they do right in front of me, the wenches.

[Q]

". . . if you do that."

What, go way out on a limb and meet with a client to discuss business? I don't think that's the "that" she was referring to. Definitely inviting a come on.

That said, she seems pretty pathetic and primarly harmless (kind of a sad, passive-agressive invite and all). However, I agree that Steve ought take his head out of the sand and at least be *aware* that this woman would like for him to hit on her (no offense intended toward him, I love one of those wonderfully oblivious men myself). Just so he doesn't miss another one of those that she takes as a sign . . ..

[Jenn]

That e-mail was completely flirty. But in that "I'm being suggestive, but trying to make it so it might not quite seem that way unless you are interested in me and then it's totally cool" way.

I am neither a cheater or cheatee.

[Alchemilla*]

Oh do let's grow up & drop all the shocked outrage expressed by a couple of the posts.

I agree she is unequivocally flirting, but since when is that a crime? How many of us met our partner through work? (Primly: I did not, but met thru the ultra-respectable means of a mutual friend. Equally primly, I am not a cheater... unless you count just the once, age 25, on my way out of a relationship. OK, I WAS a cheater.)

a) we don't know if she knows that Steve is married. If this is the case then she's just making an overture - which is actually paying him a compliment.

b) even if she does know, she might also believe that being married is no barrier to a bit of nooky. In this case, weeelll, I can't say I admire her morals, but let's face it, people do worse things.

The key is, as Kay says, what STEVE does about it. With his voice (and all the other attributes that Julia finds so attractive), I daresay this is not the last time he will be hit on. Shock Horror. Julia too probably spends some days fending off ardent admirers. He should be in no doubt - none of your convenient 'but darling you misunderstand, she couldn't possibly mean that... etc ad nauseam' that flirting is taking place, he just has to graciously decline the invitation like the gentleman he is. Dropping the phrase 'my wife Julia' and perhaps even 'my son Patrick' into the conversation a few times.

Of course, if she still persists after that then the gloves come off - bitch slap her to your heart's content.

[Kristen]

Total hussy!: especially given your description of the man's voice. Voices are very erotic to some of us. My husband became very angry with me once--and rightfully so--for making too much of his friend's deep bass voice.

[Katy]

I think you should have Steve arrange to meet her for lunch at secluded restaurant. Let her think she has him and then you show up to the lunch with him. Hahhahaha.. the look on her face should be priceless. It would be interesting to see how she dressed for said luncheon also. I am also wondering, does she know he is married?

[Anon]

Posting anon for this one, but look me up, just don’t tell anyone else.

Am big flirt and yes, have cheated.

That email was flirty.

Nothing wrong with a bit of flirting, we all do it.

What I find so amazing is how every one says they don’t cheat and their partners definitely don’t cheat on them, yet the stats say that over 50% of people cheat. So somewhere, someone is getting cheated on and doesn't know it. I hate the whole self-righteousness of it.

So Julia, how does it make you feel that some woman is flirting with your husband? Sometimes I wish someone would flirt with my husband a little. It would certainly put a spring in his step. It puts one in mine when it happens to me.

Makes me wonder, are human beings meant to be monogamous? I don’t think it comes naturally at all.

[Liv]

Definitely flirty. Though she might have just thought she was being funny.

Here's probably what was going through her mind, "I'm kidding!!! Unless you take me seriously."

Sometimes its easier to flirt with people you feel comfortable with.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I wouldn't take it too seriously. Sometimes for professional women it is awkward to arrange a dinner with a man when on a business trip b/c it feels too much like asking for a date. She's married, Steve is married, and they live far apart. If she is a good client, he should say that he (and his wife) would love to take her out dinner during her visit. She probably just wants someone to eat with instead of the misery of eating alone or having room service, but she phrased it in a flirty way b/c that is how society trains women to interact with men.

[Robin]

Why that little tart. I'll 50th what the other 49 before me have said. She is fishing, she is hitting, and she is NOT to be trusted. "Just a voice on the phone." Dear God and ICK.