Master Manners

On the last post "Slim" (may I call you Slim? how about SugarBoots?) made the following thoughtful observation:

I wonder if there were some sort of instructions about not boinking because of McCaughey-septupletish results. Because I suspect that even though getting a whole bunch of ova to fertilize was the point of this exercise, Nurse I'm-Not-A-Doctor-But-I-Play-One-on-the-Phone is ignernt enough to issue such cautions, and I likewise suspect that if Julia announced boinking in the offing, someone would post assvice about the folks from Iowa, and who needs to read that when there's jewelry to admire.
I mean, if I were Julia and I had plans for a DIY insemination, I would not mention it here. I would just post a very surprised-sounding something in a few weeks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Isn't that GREAT? I'll bet you can hear my silvery trills of laughter where you are, can't you?

Also, no comment.

Actually when the first person suggested that this was even an option I was all, "The WILD? You can actually GO there?" It never in a million years would have occurred to me that we could just, you know, take those follicles and run. As it were. I might loathe the nurse who stared blankly at me as I tried to convey through eyebrow waggling and shadow puppets that I am, really and truly, SPECIAL (and by SPECIAL I mean utterly utterly incapable of creating with my chosen life-partner a plethora of genetically normal embryos no matter how many eggs are released) but question her author-i-tay? Never.

I know many of you exhorted me to wave my arms around and stamp and pinch everyone at that clinic, hard, starting with Nurse Sewage, but I frankly do not have the energy. I hate conversations that inevitably end with my weakly repeating, "But I was TOLD... ." I think she was absolutely right about the most important thing and that was the fact that NO ONE at that place was going to authorize an IUI for me with six mature follicles. The internet assures me that this is a ridiculous policy I have no doubt this is true, but I am certain it is carved in stone for them. Largely because (speaking of things carved in stone) the director of this clinic (who was incidentally the doctor in charge on Saturday and the one who officially canceled me) has some strongly held, well-publicized beliefs that assert that even the teeny-tiniest smidgen of a weensy possibility of knowingly creating a selective reduction scenario is unacceptable (although his colleague, my actual RE, said, "It will never happen for you but just to cover that base are you ok with reduction? Great!")          

So, eh. Oh well. I don't think I will try this again. I had felt like I was pulling a fast one, getting someone to go along with my clever turbo scheme and now I feel like I got my comeupannce for being absurdly naive. Like I shoplifted a skirt and then thought they might be willing to do some alterations for me.

But back to the DIY plan... I don't think it works like that. I don't think that the follicles release anything in the absence of a trigger. Of course, I have no idea but I would think they just turn to stone like so many trolls in the sunlight.

For what it is worth, Steve and I did have sex on Saturday morning before I got canceled. I thought (ho ho ho) that I might trigger that day and have the IUI on Monday and I wanted to... clear the decks. And then we had sex again Saturday night, what with the big glowing ball of sparkles and great wine-filled dinner [oh to clarify for my own sake- Steve does not keep random pieces of jewelry in his sock drawer for these little emergencies. the tenth anniversary of my picking him up in a bar is in two weeks and he had decided to surprise me. Steve likes surprises.] So IF any of the follicles did anything on their own shockingly early I SUPPOSE it is POSSIBLE... but I doubt it.

I will naturally keep you posted as events warrant.

Now here is a question for all you humans. I don't want to pose this as a parenting question because... well, here it is.

We have always been exceedingly polite to Patrick and in turn he is exceedingly polite back. I mean, when he isn't slamming his head against my forearm or deliberately pouring an entire cup of apple juice on his plate or saying "MOMMY! Come here NOW! RIGHT NOW! I MEAN it."

In the early years when strangers would talk to him, Patrick would just hide his face. No toothless peek-a-boo from this baby for the elderly Target shopper. As he grew older he would turn to me in horror when someone asked what his name was, obviously waiting for me to call the police. In the past several months, though, he has finally processed the niceties of social discourse and he is eager to master them. In truth he is a rather eerie little host when we have people over, punctilious to a fault as he gives tours of the house ("And THIS is the living room. I moved the cushions so that they would rhyme" - I have contrasting throw pillows. Patrick HATES this and constantly moves cushions to furniture of the same fabric) and offers everyone food and drink ("Nana would YOU like some tea? Some juice? Some Cheerios?") When he gets to join a party for dinner he always wants to keep the conversation general (at the beach he went around the entire table asking everyone if they preferred Shrek or Shrek 2 then he asked for their favorite part of their chosen film. when two people liked the same thing he would say, "Sam! Uncle Mark liked that part too!")

OK? OK.

So here is the question. The dry-cleaner, his dentist, the woman at the jewelry store, Steve's orthopedic surgeon, and a bunch of others have all had the same conversation with Patrick recently:

"And what is your name?"

"Patrick."

"How are you?"

"I'm fine, thanks. How are you?"

"Um, good!" Pause. "How old are you?"

"I'm four. How old are you?"

And they tell him and he then says something encouraging to them like, "That's great! You are pretty big now, huh?"

And then if they do not say anything else he will ask them how their summer is going or if they are going to start school in the Fall or if they have any pets. All of the small talk-y things people have said to him recently .

So is this rude, do you think? Should I correct him? I believe he is just trying to be polite and is modeling his conversation from what he hears but... the look on the face of the middle-aged cashier when Patrick leaned forward and said "And how old are YOU?"------- gurk. 

If you asked a little kid some generic questions would you be offended if he asked them back?   

Comments

[Carrie]

My daughter is 3 and still has yet to answer any questions posed at her by strangers...she will snatch offerings of candy or toys but will still refuse to say her name for anyone or her age. I always feel a little odd answering for her when someone asks her a question, but I guess that is part of being a mommy. I think Patrick is awesome that he will carry a conversation - I would love to answer all his questions - generic or not.

[Molly]

I would not ask a kid stupid questions like that but if I ever had a momentary lapse of intellect I'd consider Patrick's responses to be perfectly reasonable. (The bit with the throw pillows, however, is not reasonable and you should get the kid to a psychologist asap) There's a probably apocryphal story about an adult saying to a kid "I remember when you used to sit on my lap!" and the kid replying "I remember when you used to have a lap to sit on." Ahem, don't let Patrick go there. But right now he's just fine. Except about the throw pillows.

[uberimma]

Absolutely not. And neither should anyone else be. I have strong opinions about this. If it's hopelessly rude for a child to say to an adult, you shouldn't say it to the child. Obviously, I get to tell my kids what to do, and they don't get to tell me, but I am careful to phrase things in such a way that they would be fine coming out of their mouths as well. We are big on please and thank you around here. Of course, sometimes my son tries to haul me bodily out of a chair he wants to occupy, all the while howling, "'CUSE ME PLEASE!!!" At least he has the idea.

[JustLinda]

Rhyming cushions, too funny.

No, I would not stop him or correct him as I don't see he's done anything wrong.

I used to have to watch my daughter, now 10, because honestly she would leech onto anyone who showed the slightest bit of interest. Once I was getting my nails done and she talked to this woman the entire time. I was helpless to stop it. She actually told the woman "My oldest sister, Katie, lives in storage now. We took her there last week." Of course, she didn't REALLY mean storage - she meant COLLEGE but this woman was mortified. I was trying to clear up the confusion from 25' away.

[Jb]

I'm not sure you need a trigger shot - I think when you are doing lupron to supress ovulation then you need to get the trigger - don't many docs let women "trigger" on their own when doing IUI? anyway, I think you have a shot at it...I still think, if the RE would look at your file, its a great idea...as for Patrick, I'd love to have that conversation.

[Karen]

You usually do eventually spontaneously ovulate, even in absence of a trigger shot, most commonly when the follicles reach about 22-24 mm. I would think any decent clinic would warn you of the risk of HOM with cycle cancelled due to superovulation.

[Leslie]

Any adult with half a brain will find Patrick's conversation delightful. Anyone who wishes NOT to divulge the horror of their age will give a clever answer like "I'm MUCH older than you!" My almost-four-year-old doesn't ask - he tells people how old they are. For instance Grandpa is 6, Mama is 5...

Fingers crossed for an errant follicle to meet that one perfect sperm!
btw (in the spirit of sharing) we've selected an egg donor and are on the way to whatever comes next!

[mama without instructions]

Patrick sounds amazing. I agree with everyone else that he is perfectly fine. I think correcting him could be confusing at this point. At this age he should be able to model back the conversation being initiated by the adult. All of the horrified looks should just be taken as a bonus for your amusement.

[Liz]

Had such a laugh at this one that I have to comment (in haste - have naughtily peeked at your blog while supposedly playing w/ 3 year old son!!).

Our now 5 year old, Evan, did JUST THIS at Patrick's age (leading to many funny/awkward/downright embarrassing moments). It was really hard to know how to respond to it, but I think he eventually realised that he often didn't get very satisfying responses. Fortunately he does it much less often now. However, a few weeks ago we went on a long trip to visit my only surviving grandmother. The boys had never met her before, I was quite nervous about the visit and there were many lectures about Being On Our Best Behaviour before arrival. On being introduced, Evan responded in his politest voice by saying: "Hello! How old are you?" My grandmother (good sport that she is) laughed and replied that she was 84. Evan had two responses to this. The first: "Wow - you don't even use a walking stick!" My grandmother was just recovering from this when he added: "And you've been alive for exactly one orbit of Uranus around the Sun!!!" My poor grandmother laughed so hard she nearly didn't make it to 85 (Evan advised her that she stands little chance of seeing out an orbit of Pluto).

[Pieces]

I think his conversation skills are amazing and I wouldn't discourage any of it. He is modeling perfectly acceptable adult behavior. Save the explanations about why we don't ask adults about their age for AFTER you've had to tell him not to comment on people being fat. Or ugly. Sigh. Good times...

[Sandy]

I think that if the person is willing to ask Patrick the questions, then they deserve to be asked the same. I of course, would willingly answer him, because, duh!? how cute is that!?!

My kids are 7, 5 & almost 2yrs old and they all have red hair. Their father and I don't. Everyone, and I do mean everyone asks them where they got it from. I usually joke and say they got it from the bread man or the Dr.Pepper guy...and it was funny until the kids started saying it too...

[Nicole]

I am finding it amusing, in the kindest way possible, that a woman who tells the whole internet when she last had sex is concerned about her son asking someone's age. You're so cute!

[Kristin]

Aww, I think it's disarming. I would tell him I am 11 and see if he'd call me on it.

[owlhaven]

I'd be quite amused. I suspect that he and my 4 year old could chat for half the afternoon.

Mary

[mme-p]

I just have no clue about the canceling and IUI, or sex for that matter, but I'm always, always wishing that you get what you want, so good luck.

As for Patrick, he is SO cute. My daughter was a little like that with the questions, and I just let her go for it. We did have a heart-to-heart about mentioning facial deformities and the like after one unfortunate incident, however.

[Lucy]

I was asked once by a bunch of 5 year olds how old I was and I asked back how old they thought I was. Their response was that I looked pretty old - maybe 14! I was 23 at the time. I think it is ok for him to converse with others like he does. I would engage in a conversation with him!

[Jujubee]

I think it's adorable. What adult doesn't understand that children learn by example?

[Carrie]

Adorable. I would love for Patrick to ask me questions.

[amanda]

no i wouldn't be offended and frankly i would probably giggle and then tell him how old i was. but then again i'm only 23 so i don't really care. now if he said that i "certainly was getting big now" then it might be a different story ... *smile*

[terri c]

Offended??? I would be utterly charmed. I *love* the "rhyming" cushions, what a creative way to describe them. Patrick is one in a million billion. Best luck!

[jenB]

I think it is EXCELLENT! and i would totally respond, just perhaps not truthfully.

[sozzled]

hey, if I ask Patrick how old he is it only seems fair game that he asks me the same question right back. I'm 38, thank you v much. and why yes I am big (to you atleast ;-)

[Alex]

Apparently I asked the age question (unprompted?) when at a very tender age myself, of a very elderly woman who replied that she was "As old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth." This so amused my mother that she repeats it to this day (Probably at least 34 years have since passed).

I concur with the others that adults willing to ask this question should be willing to have it posed to them, and would suggest that those unwilling to answer precisely need a response such as the above...

[Catherine]

Well, if people get involved in conversations with us they should expect us to answer they way we usually answer. Unpredictably. Either they'll enjoy it, or it serves them right for bugging us.
This is a good one, Patrick. I'll have to put it into my repertoire.
Catherine the cat-chaser

[Coral]

I love Patrick's conversations, actually the one about fonts really cracked my up. And still makes me smile.

Why is it people can ask intrusive questions from a 4 year old, but he is not allowed to ask the same question back. Seems fine to me, and Patrick, I am 43.

Love your Rhyming cushions, I hope you are to keep all these great sayings and pull them out on his 21st!! They will show his extremely high IQ was evident from early on!

Would love to watch one of these exchanges tho'.

[Jody]

I don't think Patrick is doing anything wrong, and yes, the follicles, if they hold mature eggs, will eventually release them. I'd be willing to bet that no one gave Bobbie McCaughey a trigger shot.

[Bob]

I concur with what the majority of people have said here with regard to Patrick. I think it's perfectly fine, that as you point out, he's only modeling behavior he has heard and witnessed, and truthfully, it's hard for me to believe he's only 4 given his amazing language skills ! Eventually, opportunities -sometimes uncomfortable ones - may arise whereby you'll have to teach why you shouldn't ask questions about certain people (such as when my cousin, who was 3 at the time, asked my Aunt very loudly at the grocery store if the 70+ year old man working behind the counter had a penis) but for right now, let him go to town! Adults need to stop being so uncomfortable and realize that children are just that - children - and they mean no harm with their questions. And for the record, Patrick, I'm 30. And I'm pretty sure I liked Shrek 2 better. Everytime that cat came on screen, I cracked up.

[jenny]

I would say it is rude of adults to ask a child a question they are not themselves comfortable with answering. This is actually a pet peeve of mine, that we sometimes have such different standards for children, they are after all, people - just small with less experience. I say, let Patrick keep them on their toes and thinking.

[Nicole]

I'm one of those adults who ask those questions all the time! I guess we expect children to let the questions go unanswered. Anyway, I think Patrick's response is hilarious and you should definitely not tell him to change it. He's doing his best to have a polite conversation and he's doing great.

[KellyH]

Having a 3 year old who willingly, without being asked most of the time, not only tells her name but her little sister's name, that we have cats named Scratch and Sapphire, that she likes M&Ms, that Mama has a big boo-boo (c-section scar), etc., etc., it would not offend me in the least. Most people would (and do) find it charming and amusing. I have no problem telling my age, and really do not understand why most people do.

[EJW]

Your son is amazing, and I'm so impressed with him (and thus, really with your clever parenting). I doubt anyone will be offended by his asking their ask, he's clearly too young to understand the complexity of this little social quagmire. I'm 26 and I barely understand all the rules, which change every day. I would just encourage him to continue being polite and as he gets older, introduce more details of what "polite" means.

[Auntie M]

My mother had my 9 and 12 year old cousins convinced that she was 19 (actually in her 40's) for about 5 years before they caught on that she always answered 19 when they asked her how old she was going to be in her upcoming birthday. I thought it was hilarious. But then, I had my boy cousin convinced for about a week (when he was 2) that he would turn into a girl if he didn't take enough baths. It helped that my dad has a habit of saying in his Loud Drill Sargeant Voice, "When I was a little girl, I liked pink dresses." Or some other such ridiculously girly thing that the boy cousin was objecting to.

[Reese]

I love hearing about all of these things that Patrick does! He is adorable and a wonderful conversationalist. Besides setting him up well later in life, it's pretty darn endeering, too!

[KaetheDouglas]

I love Patrick. The turnabout age question is fine. Although for fun, I love to ask the kids what they think the answer is. It's really funny when they try to guess ages.

[Celeste]

It's not rude, it's hilarious! Any middle-aged person with a sense of humor would find it amusing. The world needs more Patricks! Cherish his personality+++!

[Jackie]

While playing with a 3 year old boy I'd just met, he volunteered the information that he was 3. He then asked me, "What's your number?" I gave him my phone number, assuming that's what he was looking for. Right?

I love talking with kids. Patrick can ask me anything he wants!

[parodie]

Patrick is brilliant and hilarious. It's always entertaining when kids show us how grown-ups don't know what to say to them...

[Thora]

My daughter does that, too.
And I, at first, wondered if it was rude... but how is it any more rude than them asking her? (Or him, in Patrick's case...)

I say, let him ask... it's fair game. And anyone with any sensibility will find humor in it.
If the tables were turned on me, I would not be offended in the least.
Granted, I'm only a (svelte) twenty-five, but... you know.

[Liv]

My daughter just turned 5 and has been a great conversationalist. She has very similar conversations with people. She will walk up to a stranger, ask their name, and when they tell her, "Mom, their name is _____. They're not a STRANGER anymore!!", squealing in delight. She will then introduce herself, then me and my husband. She is a princess aficianado and once even introduced me as her stepmother.

Most people find her endearing, and cute, and so smart. I don't see anything wrong with his questions and as long as the other person participates, they don't seem mind either. There was one lady though who got very upset when my daughter asks if she was her friend's grandmother when in fact she is his mother. This woman is very oversensitive about her age. So, that may be something to role play... meaning, some people don't like to disclose their age, so don't ask that.

Has he ever told anyone they are fat? Or mouthed those words to you as someone walked past? My daughter did that a few times and I almost ran away.

[Laura K.]

I don't think I'd be offended by that. And if I were, maybe I would learn not to ask a child his or her age!

I LOVE it that Patrick is the master of small talk...especially the encouraging comment, that's so cute!

K, on the other hand, will vey often say (quite loudly), "I don't WANT to say Hi!" when meeting a new adult. Talk about charming. We are trying very hard to put a stop to that. I wouldn't worry about Patrick's line of questioning.

[Gina]

I think it is absolutely adorable. He is modeling conversation and practicing. I think it is awesome that he is speaking to people politely.

I would not be offended at all if a child talked to me like that.

I expect you to be beaming during all this.

I love how he is rhyming your cushions! That is too funny. I just love it when you talk about Patrick.

I am sorry you got cancelled and can I admit I am a bit surprised. Maybe I missed something here but wasn't the point to make a lot of follicles?? I also would not consider 6 a lot not when my last IVF I had 20. (Only 14 mature follicles and only 10 fertilized)

[Kizz]

Anyone who asks a kid how old they are and isn't prepared to have it tossed right back in their court needs more experience with kids and, in my humble opinion, deserves to get a little shocked. My personal favorite answer when a kid asks me is to tell them specifically.

"I'm 37 and a half."
"You can't BE 37 AND A HALF. Big people aren't AND A HALF!"
"If you can be 6 and THREE QUARTERS I can be 37 and a half, trust me."

I imagine this would be a long and dangerous road to start down with Patrick & his love of numbers, though.

[Mir]

I think it is delightful and charming and I will cry if you make him stop.

[deborah]

You know what I think? I think Patrick is waaaaaaaay better at idle chit chat than I can ever hope to be. Put a martini in that boy's hand and he will be the hit of any cocktail party.

[Michele]

Totally TOTALLY Not rude... Just really really smart! I would only correct him if he said something mean accidentally, so he knows in future how something he says can effect others (aren't you FAT!). Man your child is prolific. I can only get my 4 year old to say his name and age and then he clams up. Although my other son when he was 4 would announce to ANYONE he came across, "Hi! I have a penis in my shorts!" so - there are worse.

[MichelleL]

I think Patrick would be smart enough to deal with a little discussion concerning how you don't ask grown-ups how old they are because once you're grown up it becomes a secret. I distinctly remember this conversation with my mom (although I sincerely doubt I was four). With social discourse comes social responsibility -- LOL. Although it is sad that such cute conversation can be censored, that is the basis of being polite, after all . . .

[Leggy]

Patrick is too cute. I agree with most everyone else that if people have a problem with it, that's their problem. If you see someone looks really aghast, maybe you can make a joke and say "Oh Patrick, some ladies don't like to tell their ages." But most people should be able to handle it, or laugh it off themselves and say something like "too old" or whatever.

[Accidental Poet]

I think it's marvelous. If he asks an adult who doesn't want to be asked, let their reaction handle it.

The worst question I ever asked an adult, as a child? We lived in a very small town (3 streets) and one day in the grocery store (one store, one post office, and the grocery store could only be counted on to have what you wanted when the Food Truck came, once a week) ANYWAY - I walked up to a woman there and asked her, with great curiosity: "Why doesn't my mom like you?"

[bec 36]

I had a similar thing with an IUI cycle--six mature follicles, and cancelled. RE told me that I *must* abstain. I meant to, but I miscounted days and thought we were past the point of danger when we got busy. When I went back to Shady Grove for a 6-week ultrasound, the RE was clearly petrified. For various reasons I did not believe there was more than one in there. The screen revealed that my intuition was correct, and the RE promptly exhaled. The single wee blob we saw is now three. Bottom line--trigger shot is not necessary for the follicles (at least some of them) to do their thing.

bec

[bec 36]

Oh, and no! It is totally not rude. My mother used to tell everyone she was 100.

bec :D