Five Minutes at My House

I was sitting on the floor of Steve's office tonight; talking to my mother on the phone. Caroline ran towards me as fast as she could, both hands wrapped around one of the billion little things we have in this house that run on batteries and play thirty second bursts of kids' music. When she reached where I was sitting Cricket bent down and stuffed the whatsit under my skirt and then sat on it. Half a second later Edward lumbered into the office, nostrils flaring. He came over and checked each one of her hands, carefully turning them over to see both sides. Then he walked all the way around us, prodding at me with his fat little palms. Finally he inserted his body sideways between her back and my front, forcing Caroline to stand up. She gave me the blandest of smiles and strolled out of the room. Edward continued to rootle around with my knees until he found the music thing.

J'accuse!

He pressed the button to start the ABC Song and the cold look he gave me was pure Javert: there I was - his own mother! - aiding and abetting a common thief. It was only his dedication to right and order that had enabled him to prevail... aaaaaaand Z; next time won't you sing with meeeeeeeee.

[Hey speaking of Javert et al my mother called the other night and made me look up Susan Boyle on youtube. I was amused by the shock (woman sings really well despite sensible shoes) but dutifully cried anyway. Later I decided to indulge in a bonus cry and was just starting the video again as Patrick walked by. He froze.

"Hey! That's your song!"

And it is true. I have sung Fantine's lament - particularly my favorite bit where it drops into a more manageable range and you can really belt out "...soooooooooo different from this HELL I'M LIVINGGGGGG!" - a couple hundred dozen times during Patrick's lifetime. It is my song.

He listened.

"But it sounds different."

He listened some more.

"It sounds good!"

He walked off.

"Yeah, that's definitely not you."]

Right after Edward left with the music thing (no doubt to extract a confession from Caroline, having secured the necessary evidence) Patrick walked in, fresh from his bath.

"Do you believe in God?" he asked.

"I should let you go," said my mother.

"Raise your hand if you believe in God," said Patrick.

"Byyyyyee!" said my mother.

Then Steve walked in the door, fresh from supervising the bath, and said, "Apparently [kid I quite like at school] told Patrick today that people who don't believe in God are going to hell."

And they both stared at me. Waiting.

Ah.

Well.

Now as it so happens, Patrick got briefly into Greek/Roman mythology last year; backdoor'ed as it were by the close connection between cosmology (Patrick's passion) and astronomy; and the looser connection between astronomy and theology. So we have already had exhaustive conversations about pre-modern times and science and gaps in knowledge and the beliefs and stories that arose to fill those gaps. That was easy. When Patrick - I suppose naturally - pressed me about whether Pluto and Jupiter and Neptune were real, I was all over it. No, I said. When he then asked whether there were other gods or a god and do people still believe in them or what; I was able to tell him that, yes, many people, most people I think, do believe in a divine presence although how they define that and how they worship can differ greatly from country to country, from family to family, and from person to person.

Ultimately, back then, I was able to tell him what I believe and what is most important to me. Namely: it is essential to be kind; it is important to do good things for people; and when it comes to discussions of faith, above all, it is absolutely necessary to be respectful when you deal with the beliefs of others.      
So this evening's catechism put me at something of a disadvantage. Not the part where Patrick was fracking with me about my own beliefs (he knows what I believe; he was just amusing himself at my expense because he loves to ask philosophical/fraught questions five minutes before bedtime and watch me struggle to express myself in 300 seconds or less - at least, that's my theory) but the part where he said: "Yeah [nice kid] said everyone who doesn't believe in God is going to hell. Is this true or was he lying?"

My belief (respect all, blur edges - which might not amount to much in the broader definitions of theism but which I nonetheless hold dear) came screaming up against Patrick's need to have everything quantified and parsed and settled True/False.

And I wasn't quite sure how to respond.

What do you think? How does one handle [insert however you want to define the fact that children go out into the world and then they bring home what they find there; seeking parental input on thorny questions]?

PS I have not forgotten the Paraguard IUD questions. I am still collecting data *ahem* but will report back soon. Tentative thumbs up, though.

PPS Oh and I have NO IDEA why Caroline and Edward are suddenly sleeping much better. They have been two to three hour nappers for months (and yes it is lovely - Patrick would sleep for, like, ten minutes) but the past several nights one or the other has just slept straight through until eight or so. Edward's done with the molars, so that helps. Caroline has one molar left to cut but I think she has gotten used to living with her mouth torn up like a highway in the summertime. I have started offering a cuddle rather than something to eat when they  first summon me - particularly when they wake up before midnight - and both of them have been amenable, for the most part. A few times Caroline clawed at my face and smacked her parched lips together when I offered mere love; so I fed her. Ditto Edward. So far, so good.  

PPPS I just walked into the living room where Steve is sitting more or less in the dark.

"What's up with the lights?" I asked as I flipped the switch to walk across the room.

"Oh, Patrick turned them off."

"If Patrick jumped off a bridge would you?" I said, idly.

Steve stared at me.

"Of course I would."

Oh. Right. Of course he would.

Comments

[Robin]

My son came home a few weeks ago and said, "[Kid I think is pretty cool] told me that if I believe in Jesus I will live forever and if I don't I will DIE."

I pointed out that everybody dies and nobody lives forever (has a very practical basis in our family -- his dad died). Then I told him that [Kid] was mistaken and that his parents, who are perfectly nice people, have taught him something that isn't true.

[tgsdmom]

X can be wrong without lying. He could just be mistaken.

When answering questions, I try to be as truthful and direct as I can while taking into account the kid's limits of understanding. I am not always successful... And I do not believe in any kind of divinity. (Perhaps you could have a survey on this question.)

BTW, what percentage of us like mashed potatoes?

[Beth S]

I love your son. :-) I dread the day when mine comes home with the same problem. They are so alike I read your posts and think this could be my house (minus the twins). I'm sure we will have some odd discussions about this because I tend to have the same thoughts as you and DH is a strong aetheist. We've tried to avoid the subject so far and it seems to work. We just remind him that dinosaurs once roamed the earth and we have proof, and that trumps most of the current issues.

[suz]

Oh gosh, I don't have anything to help you. As a first-grade teacher I work with kids to make sure their beliefs or non-beliefs (Easter bunny, tooth fairy, Santa, etc.) co-exist with other beliefs or non-beliefs without fisticuffs or tears. Happily, separation of Church and state trumps any religious discussion whenever we get past Santa Claus. That's when I send them home to ask their parents, which is what got you into this mess...

No seriously, it is the perfect before-bedtime stumper; might be a good one to ask for a little more time to answer and come back to it the next day with lots of time (as needed) to tackle the intricacies. My son also tends to wax philisophical right about the time we are doing bedtime hugs and kisses.

[S]

When my daughter was in 5th grade a classmate told her that if she didn't believe in HER religion she was going to hell. I was all over that one and had several nice (not) emails with the girl's mother.
It was a good thing though, as it gave me more of a chance to explain to my daughter how everyone has the right to believe whatever they want.

[Jenna]

Off the subject but funny, I think. My Patrick, also 6, believes in Santa and the Easter Bunny and God. However, his "enemy", what he calls him, not me, told him, " My parents are the Easter Bunny." And mine angel looked at him with a scowl, hands on hips, and said " How do YOUR parents get into MY house?" The matter was settled there for Patrick. He merely shook his head and asked me if I could believe his enemy was so ridiculous. ( He has a good vocab.) I laughed for 5 minutes.

[SarahB]

Everyone has the right to believe what they want. Unfortunately, some people's beliefs lead them to say/do mean things about/to others. I consider it mean (and arrogant) for Person A to say that Person B is definitively "going to hell" because they do not believe what Person A does. How dare Person A claim to know the workings of the Divine? (And I say this as someone who calls herself a Christian, one with the sense that the workings of the Divine are yet beyond what any mortal religion can fathom.)

Perhaps it would be good to point out to Patrick that people can believe what they want, but this means there will be disagreement about it because of that freedom?

[Elin]

When faced with a really difficult question like that, I usually answer with something vague first, like, "Hmmmmm, that's a hard to answer. What do you think?"

Gives me the opportunity to compose my thoughts for a minute, as well as get some idea of what my kid's thinking, before I formulate an answer that sounds anything like reasonable.

[Jacqui]

I've been trying to explain God and heaven to my preschooler and as an atheist its hard, so goodness knows how it's going to be when she comes home with a gem like above. I think, depending on her age, that I'd say that Kid X is entitled to his beliefs and she needs to be respectful of them, but it's wrong and disrespectful of him to try and make anyone else feel bad because they don't believe the same things he does.

Of course, threatening atheists with hell is kind of funny when you think of it, kind of like telling a kid who doesn't believe in Santa that Santa won't leave presents if the kid is bad.

[beckyk]

Just to add fuel to the fire (*gulp*) Christians do believe that following Jesus means you live forever, and they believe it's True. They also believe if you don't follow Jesus you will live forever apart from God - in hell. I can imagine those Christian parents having a similar tough discussion as their children try out the logic with them - "does that mean if my best friend Billy doesn't believe in Jesus, he will go to hell?" (insert nervous coughing and foot-shuffling here)

As a Christian, I really wonder how I will answer that likely question of my daughter's in a loving way that doesn't send her on to the playground with the hammer of half-understood knowledge banishing all her classmates to eternal damnation and scarring them for life. Not least, I worry about the flurry of angry emails from every parent-commenter above.

The disadvantage is that Christians believe there is so much more to the story of relating to and believing in Jesus than just that one question of heaven and hell. It's just super hard to convey that on the playground. And for what it's worth, I'm sorry your kids have been hit with that whammy.

[Elaine at Lipstickdaily]

Why is it that the God questions always come up at inopportune times and when we least expect them?

[Kate]

Was there a discussion of the Paraguard IUD that I missed? I'm not going to even attempt the religion question because I haven't had to deal with it yet, but on the IUD, I have it and it's...okay. I can't use hormonal birth control, so I didn't have a ton of options. I've had the Paraguard IUD for almost two years now. Upside - you don't have to think about your birth control ever. Downside - periods are quite a bit heavier and I've had THREE bacterial infections, which is highly irritating. I'd never had an infection of any kind prior to the IUD. Still, given the alternatives, I'd probably do it again.

[Marla]

I usually say something about how there's no way to prove right and wrong answers when it comes to religion, and that's what so-and-so chooses to believe. Here's what WE choose to believe...

I have a Paraguard IUD. Have had two, actually - had the 1st removed when we were ready for baby #3. I couldn't recommend it more. Side effects only lasted through the first month or two of periods, and now it's a completely brainless, completely hormone-free BC.

[Jill]

Can I nicely say that beckyk does not speak for all Christians? Many of us do not believe that we are the only ones who will go to heaven. It is that kind of talk that people see in the media, but it isn't who most of us are.

I think exploring different faiths with Patrick would be fun. Have him research several and see what he thinks.

[wavesh2o]

I've been DREADING dealing with the religious questions. Especially because I'm pretty "in the closet" when in comes to my adult-stage-lack-of-belief and my relatives. It's one of those subjects that it seems like whatever you say will get repeated on the playground. (That and sex. As of this week, my boys think babies are made by kissing.)
My kids were recently left overnight in the care of my MIL, and afterwards Parker told me how much he really wanted to see Paradise (aka heaven in her terms). How to tell him I really do want the best for him but have no intention of taking them to a Jehovah Witness meeting? And keep in mind, it will be repeated back to MIL. A debate I really don't want to engage it, moderated by a 5 year old.

[Laura]

Hmmm... I've always thought that, because pretty much every religion thinks that you will go to Hell if you are not a part of that specific religion, we're all pretty much doomed in the eyes of the uber-religious. That being said, tough question! I would say that no, there is no way possible that we're going to a horrible place after we die no matter what we believe, but religion is SO hard! I'm interested to hear what you tell him.

That being said, I don't think I've ever commented here before, and I just wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed your writing over the years. Such a bittersweet journey you've led. I've cried and laughed with/for you so many times... You have an amazing talent for touching people (in a good, legal way of course!), thank you for your insight! I'm pregnant with our first and cannot wait to get to know the little quirks of this small person!

Laura

[Christy]

This is so hard no matter what side of the fence you happen to be on. My husband and his brother grew up in a very evangelical church being told repeatedly over the years that their father (a practicing Hindu) was going to hell. What a thing to say to a six year old!! Even if it's consistent with your beliefs - the kid is six and it's his dad for crying out loud.

I am a Christian and the one thing that stands out apart from anything else is that Christianity is about love - loving your neighbor; loving God; love. The problem is that because young kids don't have an ability to deal in "shades of gray" they operate solely in the absolute - right and wrong. If X is "right", Y must be wrong. From a christian perspective there may be truth to that - but I am not so arrogant as to believe I understand God's intentions.

If it were me I would probably reiterate some of the conversation you had with Patrick before - about what you believe is important - and underline the fact that as a christian Patrick's friend would likely share many of those beliefs (be kind; do good for others; respect others views - i.e. operate from a position of love). Then I'd probably tell him that God is not something we can understand comprehend as humans and we just have to do the best we can. Some people think that means one thing; others may believe something else. We have to learn what we can and decide for ourselves.

And if *that* doesn't work, hand him a King James version of the bible and tell him to read it and decide :). (Hey, he likes to read right?). It will buy you YEARS to come up with an answer you are comfortable with :).

Good luck.

[Jen]

Wow. My best friend at least waited til we were 12 or so to give me the same "you're my friend, but I'm worried that you're going to hell" talk (and I had been baptized and attended church regularly--just not HER church.).

In terms of Patrick's question--I think you can frame it just in terms of beliefs, and not truth/lies. It is, of course, the great, unknowable question--I think it's fair to say that people have a variety of beliefs on the topic of what happens to us when we die, but no one actually knows for sure. Good luck!

[victoria]

hmmm... not much more to add the the religion discussion, but I did wonder if you've thought of leaving a sippy cup of water in the crib with Caroline and Edward. Maybe they are waking up thirsty, not hungry. We live in a climate that requires central heating 6 months of the year, and I used to leave water with all of my kids when they were too small to get up and get it themselves. Sorry if this is a repeated suggestion, but it may be worth a try!

[beyond]

(belief and belie have all but one letter in common. interesting)
i guess you could talk about 'opinion' with patrick. everyone has a different view...
and what about the mashed potatoes survey results?

[Casey]

My own personal belief, which may not truly address your question of how to handle thorny issues, is that we all get what we believe. So, if you fervently believe you are going to heaven, that there IS a heaven, and you live in accordance with whatever tenets you must to get to heaven, then you will most certainly go to heaven. If you believe that there is nothing after this life, then you will experience just that. Everybody wins, right?

And perhaps this might be a way to handle the religion/god/heaven/hell issues. "That may be true for (Child you quite like), but I believe this."

Seriously, if anyone gives their god any credit at all, wouldn't it be conceivable (or obvious) that anything and everything are possible all at the same time? Even things that can't (in our minds) co-exist? Just because we can't explain it or define it or envision it, doesn't mean it can't be. (Which somehow leads me to the Louis C.K. routine..."because things that are not can't be!" "Why?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u2ZsoYWwJA)

[llcsis]

I would like to point out that not every Christian religion believes "if you follow Jesus you will live forever and if not go to hell" - or believes only They are right. I was raised in Christian Science (NO that is not the same as Tom Cruise for pity's sake and YES we take our kids to Drs when they need it) which uses the King James Bible.

It's still the closest thing to what I believe although I rarely go. It raised us with religious tolerance, never told that other religions were wrong, but that we all had different ways of loving God (or not). It is not part of CS that if you do not believe you will go to "hell." All in all, it's kind of ... a kinder, gentler religion. LOL

Re: Patrick...what I would do in your case.. "Many people do believe in God, I personally do not (but can say you believe in good, love, karma etc here if appropriate). They feel very strongly sometimes because their belief comforts them, so you should not argue with them. No one really knows for sure til they die. You get to make your own decision on that, based on what you feel and learn in life."

Wow, I'm gonna get slammed now aren't I?

[llcsis]

By the way I like Christy's comment a few entries above VERY much.

[Arbutus]

Jacqui, well said! I don't remember having to address this particular problem with my boys. They were raised in the Christian faith with tolerance and interest in other religions and cultures. They did have concern for their friends and playmates not believing in God/Christ but somehow it was conveyed to them that what you believe is a personal choice, you can (lovingly and courteously) offer what you believe and then it is up to each person to make their own decisions. It is sad that many well meaning parents don't do a very good job of conveying this to their children. True Christianity is based on love and mercy, it is the essence of who Christ is, it is beyond me how so many people who claim Christianity overlook that!

[Stephanie O]

My instinct would be to go with a "I don't believe in hell, so I'm not worried about going there" type answer. Along with all the sensitive "respect other people and their right to their own beliefs, it's quite impolite to tell them what they should / must believe" type stuff.

And if you're interested, I've been reading a great book called "In the Beginning: Creation Stories from around the world" with my son (6) http://tinyurl.com/cjxbdm.

My favorite is the one where the creator is some kind of man-like hairy beast - his skull becomes the dome of stars, his body becomes the earth, and mankind is created from his fleas. :)

[Suzi]

There's also the good analogy I like :

God is like a huge massive elephant, and we are all blind.

One person is touching the elephant's ears - he knows they are flat and dry and he believes that with all his heart, and is certain that he is right in what he knows about the elephant. And he is - for him.

Another person has the elephant's trunk. He believes the the elephant is long and round and wet at the end. He also believes in his heart that what he experiences is the Truth.

And they are both right and they are both wrong. Religion is about people who are experiencing the same parts of the elephant. Sometimes they agree with other people touching the elephant, sometimes they don't.

I like that metaphor.

[Jane]

I have one word for you: Unitarian. Do you know what the definition of a Unitarian is? An atheist with a six-year old. My daughters were both raised Unitarian and remain happy secular humanists with little pagan children of their own.

[Andrea]

I am a parent on the proverbial other side of the coin. My child (9) came home from school acting quite despondant, and when I pressed, he told me how sad he was that his friend doesn't believe in God. It wasn't an easy discussion for me to have, either, and I find I am talking to him about it bit by bit over several days. I have consulted friends over how to respond.

However we respond to these things, we should be aware that our response is forming a bedrock of belief in our children (whatever that belief - or non-belief is).

Whatever else I tell him, I make sure he knows that our beliefs don't change because people say they aren't true, or aren't tolerant, or are "mean". If they changed with the winds, they wouldn't be beliefs - they would be moods.

I wish you the best in finding an answer that leaves you feeling at peace with what you've conveyed.

[Crystal]

Ha, you just have to explain mere theology. I've spent 13+ years carefully explaining to oldest boy my theories on the intrinsic value of each and every human life, including the really, really bad people (the Hitler's of the world, for instance). Not quite in those words, but...

Imagine my horror when presented with the evidence of my hypocrisy...

Mom, why do you say Shrubya is evil?

Gulp.

If I backpedal on a unicycle might he be so charmed he'll forget what he asked?

Which gave me the opportunity to explain we are all human, which is the highest praise I can give to diversity, as much as we all like to believe our most dearly held beliefs are infallible, they in fact are not. Having someone on the other side of the philosophical aisle keeps us honest, and working at the introspection. They too have valid beliefs, perspectives and knowledge I don't have, whether I like what they believe or not.

I suppose that's the best model you can work from as a parent, put your best foot forward, in age-appropriate sound bites, and be prepared to eat crow.

Beyond that, be prepared to learn from them. They really have some wonderful insights into the world.

[kris]

i think i would just tell my child that everyone has their own truths and beliefs and that what seems true to one person will not be another persons truth. it doesn't mean anyone is lying but that they believe their own truths.

[Peachy]

I really liked kris's idea about everyone believeing their own truth... and then I imagined Patrick trying to explain that he didn't actually do something bad because that's "his own truth."

HEE!!!

[Chris]

Shew! My b/g twins are 2.5 and I have no older children, so I have yet to address such inquiries. Hubby - Baptist turned Atheist (I say Deist - he disagrees). Me - Catholic turned believer in an infinite power that unites everything - that some call God. With you on the be good/be kind/be respectful. I believe in reincarnation of sorts so the Heaven/Hell thing is an odd topic for me. It is a non topic for the hubby...so I guess we better start figuring out how to help the kids along. I just want to give them tools to explore everything and decide for themselves.

[TheLuckyGal]

I might have mentioned this back when we were talking about death (of pets, cats, specifically ... ) - I got this book: http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Book-World-Religions-Books/dp/1550749595 and take the "everyone can believe what they want to believe and there are a LOT of different things that people believe" route. On heaven / hell / god I say something about how thinking about what happens when we die can be very scary and confusing and so many religions make up stories to make people feel better about it all ...

[Erica]

Skipping over the whole religion thing (except for the poster who said to give Patrick the KJV Bible and that will buy you years? Funny, very funny. But I'm thinking a year, max with that kid! LOL)

Javert and a bridge-jumping reference? Love it.

[Jessica]

Re: the religion question posed at bedtime....while it may seem like a horrible stall tactic to prolong awake hours, or just something meant to prolong YOUR awake hours thinking up an adequate answer, and then torturing yourself on things left unsaid or phrased wrong, it is actually just brought up as he processes stuff that happened that day.

As for a suitable answer to the one thrown at your head this time, good luck! I have 6 younger siblings, and have heard answers to all kinds of things stumbled over, but as my family had tendencies that were religious rather than not, we never had to deal with these types of things. As my own daughter is just 6 months old I am not dealing with them myself yet, but kind of like the thought of going back to good old Greek mythology. The people of that time thought those stories were real, and acted accordingly...the people in our time who follow a religion believe that THOSE stories are real, and act accordingly. What a person believes is real to them, and we should not bust their bubble, so to speak, but we do not have to believe with them, but rather can take pleasure in knowing that when this belief system dies out and books are written about it in a couple thousand years it will sound as ridiculous to the next group of enlightened religious folks as the idea that lightning is made by Zeus throwing thunderbolts when angry.

Also, re: Susan Boyle - did you see SImon Cowell's face when she was singing? The picture that popped into my mind was from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas"...The scene where the Whos are all singing in the town square and the Grinch has his revelation "maybe Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more...." Each time I have seen the video clip I keep thinking that maybe Simon's small heart grew three sizes that day...

[Nicole]

You are a pleasure to read usually, but you are even better when I am drunk. Take that how you will.

I have had several discussions with my oldest (a newly minted 7 year old) about this sort of thing. I don't think he's had any religious ultimatums delivered via schoolmate, but he spent a couple of years attending a Montessori preschool with a strongly Christian undertone. (When he was 4, he came home in tears about the Easter stories of Jesus on the cross--his teachers hadn't noticed his distress and I was not impressed.) My response is that different people believe different things--I outline a few possibilities and point out the importance of basic kindness--and he is allowed to believe whatever feels best for him. It doesn't have to be the same thing as his friends or family, and there is no right or wrong. (Incidentally, we have had the same discussion about Santa et al. So far he is happiest believing.) He is also allowed to modify his beliefs whenever and however he likes. Then we talk about what each of us thinks, and how we still have so many questions, and I am sure to follow up with how well-thought out his ideas are and how much Daddy and I love him no matter what he believes. We also have a "Religions of the World" book, which gives a very basic overview of--wait for it--religions of the world, and that helps.

I just watched the Susan Boyle clip tonight, and I got teary (though I have to admit, I have PMS, I am drunk, and I am easily swayed). I'd like to give her a high five. I think I'll go watch it again. Pity I've drunk all the wine, I'd like to swill a bit while dabbing my eyes and humming along.

[Laurie]

My eight year old believes in Angels. He says that he thinks the reason why everyone can't see them is because they have a blind spot. When my fifteen year old was about to turn thirteen he wanted to become Jewish because then he would be considered a man. I suggest that you teach them about different religions so that they aren't surprised by them going to school and mixing with other people in much the same way that you teach them about different countries and cultures. Teach them to be respectful and tolerant. To listen and ultimately think for themselves. We believe in God and Jesus Christ. My fifteen year old is quite proud of the fact that he has two friends one who is a religious zealot and the other who is a nonbeliever. He mediates and keeps the peace between them all the time. He comes home and tells me all about them all the time. He is proud of his friend for preaching and standing up for his beliefs and at the same time proud of his other friend for also standing on his.
Not much help I'm afraid. As for Caroline and Edward and the toy incident that is sibling rivelry at it's best. It can be very amusing at times. My two youngest are two years and eleven days apart and they are each other's worst enemy and best friend. They like to go out of their way to annoy one another but don't let someone mess with her brother. She takes no prisoners.

[Laurie]

PS. Wait until they become more vocal at expressing their sibling rivalry. I'll never forget the day my son told me that his sister was evil after she got him in trouble. He said,"Sissy is evil mommy, she's pure evil!" He is my drama queen. If you can imagine that with the feeling of Scarlet O'Hara saying, "As God is my witness I'll never go hungry again!" you'll see why I tried very hard not to crack a smile and it still makes me giggle thinking about it. When his grandpa brought him in to see his sister for the first time he said, "Oh NO!" and started crying. My dad said that he knew trouble was coming.

[Kim]

I think this is a conversation in my future (DD is 2 now.) As someone who went (as a gradeschooler, don't remember how old) to our friend's church to see what it was about, and had a bible handed to me by the pastor who told I had better read it since my parents were going to hell, I'm not looking forward to it.
Sorry - took a little trip down Bitter Lane there. I'm telling my kid that if there is a heaven, then people who do their best to lead good lives, and make decisions that benefit the world rather than harm it certainly will end up there.

[Sarah]

The religion talks are the ones I think I dread the most! My mother has been the only one introducing it to my kids (against my request for her not to) so my oldest (4) has asked, I leave the explanation of prayers as "something some people like to do but I do not." When it comes to other kids I think the response I will teach is "That's not a nice thing to say," in the same line as my general rule, always be nice & if someone else isn't being nice, walk away.

[Rebeccaof8]

Interesting how people completely twist beliefs to make themselves feel better, no? I do not believe in organized religion. We are Christians, who attend a non-denominational church. We have NEVER talked of hell or told or suggested hell to anyone for being a non-believer. We focus on God being kind, generous and loving - not scary. I remember our Pastor saying once that the biggest turn off toward Christianity for most people are Christians. That always makes me pause and laugh a little. The idea that people need to be "good enough" or do all the right things to receive Jesus' gift completely belittles his sacrifice. He died for everyone, even murderers - not just the "good people." I have encountered many many questions from my children because much of my immediate family are Jehovah's Witnesses and have tried to say things to them regarding their beliefs. I always tell my children that everyone is free to believe what they want, but daddy and I don't share their particular beliefs. While they are good people, we are going to agree to disagree and leave it at that. For my children, I think it is a lot more clear how painful pushing your beliefs on someone can be, because my family has ex-communicated me for not being a Witness anymore...still the best decision I've ever made :)

[Deborah VA]

We are two atheist parents living in a very Baptist centered area with 3.4 year old b/g twins. I am dreading the day. Already a 'friend' brought over some books of bible stories and bible verses. Daddy has a beard so they both think the pics of Jesus are of Daddy. I read the books and replace the works accordingly. When they are older, I am considering taking them to several different churches and explain that different families believe different things. Basically, "here is a sample pack kids". Good luck!

[Kathleen]

I only wish we'd made it to that age with our son. Instead he came home from a sleepover looking upset and then burst into tears. He handed us the booklet the child had handed him, which was a graphically illustrated explination about the one way trip to hell he and his parents were on.

I try to be a forgiving woman but I could still strangle those parents, whose approach to my upset son was to invite him and his family to their church.

Okay, rage passing...

We told him that we did not believe that. At all. That we thought his friend was very wrong but it was not his place to tell that to his friend. Just as his friend should not have told him that what his family believed was wrong.

And that is the story of how my son's first sleep over was his last one until years later.

[Leslie]

As an atheist parent I have pretty strong feelings about the best way to deal with religious issues and my kids. Religious people think it's perfectly acceptable to teach their children about their religion including the parts of it which condemn others to eternal damnation. It is also perfectly acceptable for me to teach my children why I think those beliefs are wrong.

In cases like this one I think the most important lesson to teach doesn't have anything to do with who believes what but rather is about how we should treat other people. When you disagree with someone, it is simply wrong to try and frighten (or shame) them into agreeing with you. We shouldn't do that to each other.

So, I think you should be honest with Patrick. Tell him that you think what that kid believes is wrong. And that eventually, he'll have to decide what to believe for himself. But no matter what you believe or what he comes to believe, it's never okay to hurt someone because they disagree.

[Denise]

Sounds like a teachable moment to me! I suppose how you handle it depends on what you feel like teaching--respect, tolerance, critical thinking?

When he gets older, you could augment that lessons with "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" or the bit about hell from Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man or Dante. I'm an atheist and I'm completely terrified of hell because of them!

[Anonymous New York]

I don't remember exactly what my parents told me at a young age, but what I do remember is that somewhere along the line I learned of the convenient Bible passage that says something about God's kingdom having many houses. And that seemed to work for everyone. Of course I was told that Roman Catholics get the best house. Presumably decorated with all of the wares stolen during the Crusades.

I particularly like the elephant metaphor. I think that is probably the best metaphor of religion that I have heard to date.

[Nancy]

@Anon NY - "...Roman Catholics get the best house. Presumably decorated with all of the wares stolen during the Crusades."

Hilarious!

[Marsha]

We are Episcopalian and go easy on the hell thing. In response to a similar issue here at our house we told our son that some people bear their faith/non-faith like a hammer and others like a cloak, that one requires swinging away from oneself banging on stuff to be made useful while the other is best pulled close as a personal shield in a world that can seem adversarial and cold. Then we asked him what he thought our family approach is as compared to his friends'. "Hammers can be really dangerous if they're not used right," he said. Exactly, kid. We've also started using some of the tenants of the "post-critical naivete" concept with good success.

In terms of Patrick's question, I would think that it would be enough to explain that some people believe X or Y (or not) that no convictions (no matter the variety) grant guaranteed rights of promulgation nor do they offer protection from the consequences of trying.

[Mitzi]

As a Christian and as a mother my simple answer is yes yes yes, I believe in God.

[Jan]

Reflection on Julia: her commenters are always some of the best and most thoughtful compared to other blogs.