Five Minutes at My House

I was sitting on the floor of Steve's office tonight; talking to my mother on the phone. Caroline ran towards me as fast as she could, both hands wrapped around one of the billion little things we have in this house that run on batteries and play thirty second bursts of kids' music. When she reached where I was sitting Cricket bent down and stuffed the whatsit under my skirt and then sat on it. Half a second later Edward lumbered into the office, nostrils flaring. He came over and checked each one of her hands, carefully turning them over to see both sides. Then he walked all the way around us, prodding at me with his fat little palms. Finally he inserted his body sideways between her back and my front, forcing Caroline to stand up. She gave me the blandest of smiles and strolled out of the room. Edward continued to rootle around with my knees until he found the music thing.

J'accuse!

He pressed the button to start the ABC Song and the cold look he gave me was pure Javert: there I was - his own mother! - aiding and abetting a common thief. It was only his dedication to right and order that had enabled him to prevail... aaaaaaand Z; next time won't you sing with meeeeeeeee.

[Hey speaking of Javert et al my mother called the other night and made me look up Susan Boyle on youtube. I was amused by the shock (woman sings really well despite sensible shoes) but dutifully cried anyway. Later I decided to indulge in a bonus cry and was just starting the video again as Patrick walked by. He froze.

"Hey! That's your song!"

And it is true. I have sung Fantine's lament - particularly my favorite bit where it drops into a more manageable range and you can really belt out "...soooooooooo different from this HELL I'M LIVINGGGGGG!" - a couple hundred dozen times during Patrick's lifetime. It is my song.

He listened.

"But it sounds different."

He listened some more.

"It sounds good!"

He walked off.

"Yeah, that's definitely not you."]

Right after Edward left with the music thing (no doubt to extract a confession from Caroline, having secured the necessary evidence) Patrick walked in, fresh from his bath.

"Do you believe in God?" he asked.

"I should let you go," said my mother.

"Raise your hand if you believe in God," said Patrick.

"Byyyyyee!" said my mother.

Then Steve walked in the door, fresh from supervising the bath, and said, "Apparently [kid I quite like at school] told Patrick today that people who don't believe in God are going to hell."

And they both stared at me. Waiting.

Ah.

Well.

Now as it so happens, Patrick got briefly into Greek/Roman mythology last year; backdoor'ed as it were by the close connection between cosmology (Patrick's passion) and astronomy; and the looser connection between astronomy and theology. So we have already had exhaustive conversations about pre-modern times and science and gaps in knowledge and the beliefs and stories that arose to fill those gaps. That was easy. When Patrick - I suppose naturally - pressed me about whether Pluto and Jupiter and Neptune were real, I was all over it. No, I said. When he then asked whether there were other gods or a god and do people still believe in them or what; I was able to tell him that, yes, many people, most people I think, do believe in a divine presence although how they define that and how they worship can differ greatly from country to country, from family to family, and from person to person.

Ultimately, back then, I was able to tell him what I believe and what is most important to me. Namely: it is essential to be kind; it is important to do good things for people; and when it comes to discussions of faith, above all, it is absolutely necessary to be respectful when you deal with the beliefs of others.      
So this evening's catechism put me at something of a disadvantage. Not the part where Patrick was fracking with me about my own beliefs (he knows what I believe; he was just amusing himself at my expense because he loves to ask philosophical/fraught questions five minutes before bedtime and watch me struggle to express myself in 300 seconds or less - at least, that's my theory) but the part where he said: "Yeah [nice kid] said everyone who doesn't believe in God is going to hell. Is this true or was he lying?"

My belief (respect all, blur edges - which might not amount to much in the broader definitions of theism but which I nonetheless hold dear) came screaming up against Patrick's need to have everything quantified and parsed and settled True/False.

And I wasn't quite sure how to respond.

What do you think? How does one handle [insert however you want to define the fact that children go out into the world and then they bring home what they find there; seeking parental input on thorny questions]?

PS I have not forgotten the Paraguard IUD questions. I am still collecting data *ahem* but will report back soon. Tentative thumbs up, though.

PPS Oh and I have NO IDEA why Caroline and Edward are suddenly sleeping much better. They have been two to three hour nappers for months (and yes it is lovely - Patrick would sleep for, like, ten minutes) but the past several nights one or the other has just slept straight through until eight or so. Edward's done with the molars, so that helps. Caroline has one molar left to cut but I think she has gotten used to living with her mouth torn up like a highway in the summertime. I have started offering a cuddle rather than something to eat when they  first summon me - particularly when they wake up before midnight - and both of them have been amenable, for the most part. A few times Caroline clawed at my face and smacked her parched lips together when I offered mere love; so I fed her. Ditto Edward. So far, so good.  

PPPS I just walked into the living room where Steve is sitting more or less in the dark.

"What's up with the lights?" I asked as I flipped the switch to walk across the room.

"Oh, Patrick turned them off."

"If Patrick jumped off a bridge would you?" I said, idly.

Steve stared at me.

"Of course I would."

Oh. Right. Of course he would.

Comments

[Amy]

Since we're Jewish, this is a huge problem for us, especially around Christmas time. People mean well, but having everyone ask my children what Santa is bringing them gets annoying.
We send our kids to a Jewish preschool. We go to synagogue and keep kosher. That's what's best for us. And we've explained (at least to the oldest who wants to know) that everyone believes what's best for them and that no one is right or wrong. Faith is faith.
It would break my heart to have someone tell my child they were going to hell. We already have our share of issues (the Jewish cemetary in our area was completely destroyed and vandalized- try explaining THAT).

[Karishma]

hmmm, interesting. i'm hindu. i love hinduism, but strangely, that doesn't necessarily mean that i believe in hindu gods, if that makes any sense. i am of the opinion that there is a uniting power in this universe that holds it together, upholds natural laws, etc. etc. however, i think basic human nature was that this nameless, faceless power that we could identify as the basis of the world needed to be personified, made into something we could all relate to.

therefore, we get myths. we get deities. we get fables, morals and ethics, everything. it just so happens i was raised in a hindu household, hence i hold hindu mythology close to my heart. but i also apply the elephant metaphor to this situation. hindu mythology is one way of looking at this singular universal divine force, and it just happens to be the way that i know the most about. i don't necessarily believe that any of these myths *happened*, but i 110% believe that they were constructed such that people would learn lessons from them. and i definitely think there is an incredible amount of value in these myths and the moral guiding force they can provide.

but on that note, i could probably say that same about any religion. morals are only slightly variable. with only a few exceptions that i shall not name, even when all religions are different, the moral compass they provide is mostly the same, it's just that we have different stories and justifications to go with.

[jana]

I think a way to satisfy Patrick's need for true/false quantifying AND your desire to uphold the idea of respecting other peoples' beliefs while acknowledging those beliefs might not extend to everyone would be to say something along the lines of:

"It's TRUE that in some religions people think that those who don't believe in God will go to hell. It sounds like your friend has those religious beliefs."

I have to take issue with the first commenter (Robin?) who said to tell your child that his friend had been taught something that wasn't true. Perhaps it's because I'm a religious person who does try to respect the fact that many, many people not only don't believe what I believe but think that I'm a loon for believing it, but I really wish the courtesy was mutually extended. Can't you just say that your friend has been taught something in which you don't believe? Something that relies on faith, not "truth"? Because that comment smacks of name-calling. I can see that conversation spiraling into "No, YOU'RE the liar! You're stupid!" etc.

[Laura K.]

OMG - the twins sound hilarious! I loved your description and Les Mis reference (AND, I love that song, and the Susan Boyle clip - wonerful!).

I think you've gotten a lot of good feedback on the question, so I guess I don't have any advice to add. Clearly families both with and without religious beliefs will have children who come home with these questions becuase they don't all believe the same things, so we all need to be teaching tolerance and respect of other families' beliefs, and I like the comment about someone else's opinion not meaning that your beliefs should change. I'd love to hear how you explain it, as it may be helpful when the issue comes up for others. I've already heard some good ideas from the other posters.

[Barbara]

Hello, you don't know me very well (I've only recently de-lurked) but I'd love to hear your opinion on motherhood so I've tagged you for a meme. You can find details at http://bsouth.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/a-brief-aside-14-around-the-world-in-80-clicks/

[Sam]

As a Christian, this would break my heart if my child took it upon himself to evangelize the playground. You can't blame the kids, though, in many churches children are being taught to win friends for Jesus, etc.

I think your best response to Patrick is something along the lines of "that's what that particular person believes, but we don't."

[lulu]

i would say that i do not believe that that is true. I would then say what i believed. I might say that i thought that the other kid and his parents were wrong, but that it is not a good idea to get into a religious argument at school. A debate with someone in the mood for a debate, sure, but not an argument with someone who is sure they are right.

Now, if the friend told my kid that my kid was going to hell, i would probably handle things a little more strongly in the vein of talking to my kid about how some people veiw thinking about god as a way for them to feel better about themselves and less scared of the unknown--if i believe in god and do x and y, i get to go to heaven-- but our family believes that you treat others with kindness and the earth with care and ourselves and others with respect b/c that is what we all deserve, not b/c of someone reward in the afterlife.

[Monica C.]

Ditto beckyk's comments, above.

And I think it's just a question of explaining to your child that different people believe different things, followed with an explanation of what Mommy believes, and why.

What Patrick's classmate said was not meant to offend; that is what [he] believes. And if it engenders the "religion conversation," that's not a bad thing.

But that pre-bedtime timing sucks. That's when my answer would be something like, "Just because. Nowgetyourjammiesonrightnowandgoodnight."

[Vicky]

Julia, write and publish a book already. Please?

[Pam L]

I love the 'Caroline hiding the music toy on you and Edward coming to look for it and the glare you got when he found you were part of the ruse against him' story. Too funny. Not having two the same age at the same time I did not get to witness this discovery of subterfuge where the culprit and the victim were the same age, and related. It's easier to deal with when there is an older one who "should know better" doing the hiding. I bet Edward will be brilliant at hide and seek.

[n]

Two comments within a week. I must be someone else!

Going to join the Hell-Nonbeliever commenting crowd. I have the same issue in our household.

My take boils down to: Hell is only hellish for believers.

Or how about this version... Believers are fish. Nonbelievers are butterflies. Heaven is water, hell is air.

That sounded better in my head than out. Oh well.

OR... Ah... A version that'd make sense to my daughter. If she were the Believer and I were the Nonbeliever, then Heaven is a Princess output and Hell is Jeans/T-shirt.

Ok, I'm ready for my kid to hit me with this.

Religion, to me, is as personal as what's beautiful. Hard to have a right or a wrong answer.

[Caroline]

I love your blog, Julia! On the religion topic, we've gotten the same question at our house. I am agnostic with an affinity for transcendentalist thinking, and my husband is decidedly atheist, and we live in the Bible belt South. Both of my kids went to a church preschool because it was the only good, affordable option. My 9-year-old daughter wavers between a disdain for all things Christian and a desire to believe, especially in heaven. She is getting to the age where she thinks about death a lot, and we also lost my grandmother recently, who she was close to. Part of me wants to just tell her that there is a heaven-- or at least give her something more spiritually comforting than an "I'm not sure" or "people believe different things." I think about seeking out a Unitarian or Quaker church sometimes (I love the Unitarian comment above!), but they are hard to find in these parts!

[Nimble]

I suggest a bland statement about "people believe different things. No one can see or touch Heaven or Hell or God but some people believe in them." Then I might add that I don't believe in Hell and I don't know about the other two.