Unintentionally Redundant

Sometimes I write a post and then I worry that I did a poor job of explaining myself. So I have kinda been following the comments on that last one with my face half-averted, lest someone blow up at me. My concern was that you would think I was mad at the very nice kid for mentioning eternal damnation to my superspecial snowflake; when in fact my fear was that Patrick might have behaved like a lemonhead and upset the very nice kid. In my world what you believe is a whole lot less significant than how you treat people. But I needn't have worried. You were more than capable of connecting the dots for me and shoring up any inadequacies in my narration. I think Marsha summed it up nicely in the comments by saying it was a teachable moment and the only question was: what did I feel like teaching? Since Patrick was obviously well aware of the sizeable gap between our beliefs and that of his schoolmate it seemed like the right moment to don my magnificent grey hat and go the R-E-S-P-E-C-T route. I talked about how lucky his friend is to have such strongly held beliefs and how much pleasure and comfort their faith must bring to their family. It always seems sort of backhanded to me to say, you're wrong... but best of luck with that! So I tried to be honest but positive and talk about what I have always felt with regard to most organized religions - they're not for me but it would be oh so nice if they were. Becky (and later Monica - hi Monica!) pointed out that the child was not trying to be mean or spiteful in stating his beliefs; they are what they are. And I read their comments and nodded like a bobble-head because it was one of the things I wanted to make especially clear to Patrick: these are beliefs - as in that which is held to be true - and they are very important and you do not have to share them to respect them and their importance.

This is not to say that I cannot imagine someone, even a child, using his faith to cudgel someone. I can. Quite easily. I just didn't think that was what was happening here. Furthermore, if I had discovered Patrick lying under his bed in a dark room with a rosary he had constructed from yarn and Cheerios muttering "Can't sleep. God will get me" I would have had a very different reaction. Instead Patrick phrased it in the neutral third person (X says you will go to hell if you...) and he did so with that six year old gleam (you know the one?) that look in the eye that says: I have found something that challenges you; so how do you like them apples of Hesperides, mother?

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and, as always, for your almost otherwordly civility.

Tonight at dinner Patrick announced that he now believes in God.

"Congratulations," I said.

"It's great; you should try it," he urged.

"OK," I said.

He went back to eating his fish.

I called my mother from the pantry.

"MOM! Patrick is going evangelical on me."

She started laughing.

"It couldn't have happened to a nicer couple," she said and hung up.

Do you know the musical The Fantasticks? It has a song in it called Plant a Radish (something like that) which talks about how bewildering it is to have any expectations whatsoever concerning your children. Unlike radishes they come out any which way - with your progeny it's hodge-podgenee.

This is a sincere question because I just have the one six year old. Are they all like this? Is this a time of testing boundaries and generally effing with you? I feel like Patrick's lab rat 95% of the time. Is he being sincere, silly, serious, sarcastic? I never have any idea. Not just about the religion thing - it's like every conversation I have with him involves my groping along trying to figure out what he wants from me. It's exhausting. 

Things are a lot simpler with the twinkles, especially since they both know "Yeah" (yaaaaaah) but neither of them has yet twigged to "No."

Do you want zucchini? Yaaaaaaah (until Caroline actually gets the zucchini into her mouth and remembers how much she dislikes it - then she scrapes it off her tongue into a gross little greenish heap on her tray. Edward's like, oh, hey, are you going to eat that?)

I had this weird thunderbolt moment the other day as I was going through photographs. I suddenly realized, "Wow, they are REALLY twins." It had nothing to do with looking the same - or not, as the case may be - but as I glanced at a couple of days worth of pictures I suddenly realized how close they are to each other.

Steve's cousin married a guy who has a twin sister and one of the things he said to me after they were born is "They will be grateful for each other their whole lives. It's a relationship unlike anything else. Very special."

And although at the time I was touched by his obvious affection for his sister part of me looked at my little burritos and thought, yeah, yeah, I'm very close to my brother, too.

I don't know though. It is kinda special.

Can you see Edward's anxious little face in the window? He wasn't sure he wanted to go outside but then they sat there staring at each other for a few moments.

And out he comes.

Steve wanted to know if they are able to silently communicate with each other, like ants.

---- oh hell and damnation! I just went upstairs to tuck Patrick in and got this story in a whispered, embarrassed rush: today at school Very Nice Kid and Still Nice But Rather More Spirited Kid were playing with dominoes. Patrick wanted to play too. Their response? You can only play if you believe in God Jesus.

I said, "Oh. I. See. And what did you think about what they said?"

Patrick said, "It didn't hurt my feelings! But I said that's not fair. Can't I just play too?"

"And?"

"No, they said I couldn't if I don't believe."

No wonder he became a convert over dinner - only believers get to play with dominoes. I could kick myself for failing to follow up on Patrick's sudden conversion and for thinking he was being deliberately provocative without reason. I feel guilty and troubled.   

So... now what? Now what do I do? 

Comments

[chris]

Guilty? What on earth for? Tell Patrick to find new friends, or tell him to tell the little extremists to suck it. I hate organized religion.

[Shandra]

Do dominoes come in sets with pagan symbols on the back? :)

[Maria]

Holy cow that some serious stuff for a little one to deal with! I'm just glad we didn't go through the same (AFAIK.) Poor Patrick and poor you!

I kinda hope he comes to the conclusion that kids who treat others that way might not be kids he wants to play with. Maybe VNK and SNBRMSK aren't so nice after all. Nice kids don't exclude other kids, for any reason.

[jen]

If only everyone were as enlightened about respecting others beliefs as you are. Oh hello, world peace.

As they are not, I'm sincerely interested in what anyone would do. Our house is rife with organized religion issues and I'm still trying to tactfully dance my way around them. My plan that has worked so far is ignoring it...but it never occurred to me this kind of situation might present itself.

But wow, Patrick is really impressive. Very mature and intelligent. At that age, I would have just started crying or lied to get to play.

[camper]

We deal with the organized religion questions here, too, but I'm here to talk about the twin connection. My twins, boyandgirl, are 7. When they were babies and everyone and their brother approached me with their twin stories, I'd always ask "are you still close to your twin?' and the answer was always yes. I don't know why I kept asking but with every yes I felt some sort of growing happiness about having twins. As an only child, I dreamt of this closeness.
Now, I can see it so clearly, this connection they share. They are best friends, so different but so protective of each other. I wish I had me a twin brother.

[Not My Mother]

Wow you do much better with all this than I would. Personally I'd be telling Patrick to tell the kids that they can't play with him unless they believe in Sassy.

I suppose you *could* have asked him why it was really good to believe in God (because you get to play dominoes!) but hey, given the amount of guff that comes out of most 6yo mouths you can't feel too guilty for not following it all up... :-)

[Elsha]

It seems that the other parents have not taught the same lessons in respecting beliefs that you have.

Also, I have to agree with the previous comment-- nice kids don't exclude other kids, for any reason.

[Jujube]

Wow. I can only imagine the fun-loving parents who drilled THAT into their six-year-olds. If it were one of my children in that situation, I'd want to have a private conversation with the teacher. Perhaps she can have a word with the parents about respect for others' beliefs (especially at a publicly-funded, non-parochial school). Seriously. What if Patrick had been raised Jewish as opposed to agnostic-with-an-open-mind? That kind of coercion is unacceptable. Unfortunately, people with very strong religious convictions often don't care what you think and you're wrong anyway. Good luck.

[Anne]

Oh lordy. Kids learn so young how to be exclusive, don't they? I remember a girl in the 4th grade telling me that she didn't like me because of my shoes (grey, jazz-style sneakers--what's not to like??) My daughter is only two so I don't have a lot of concrete advice, but, in trying to picture myself in that situation, would probably tell my daughter that my belief is that people with all kinds of different ideas can still be good friends and play together, but some other people may not believe that.

I didn't realize, however, that belief in God Jesus was required to play dominoes--wonder which book of the Bible that's listed in? I would say Leviticus, but that was waaaaay before Jesus, so---I'm stumped!

Good luck with this one....

[Pam L]

It didn't have to be believing in God, the other two boys found something that excludes the third kid, in this case Patrick. If it wasn't God it would have been something else.And if it wasn't Patrick, it would have been someone else. I've seen it over and over again when there are 3 boys, or girls really. The one boy, the one who believes in Hell, is on a kick about it, maybe the ideas are newly presented to him or something, and he is using it with the other boy to have a sort of clique that excludes. It's power in numbers.
The only thing Patrick CAN do is find someone else , something else, to play with. If he plays their game it will continue and he will not be happy about it.
I grew up next to girl non-identical twins. They got annoyed with each other sometimes but they did have that something that even close sisters could never have, and we all recognized that even as kids. They were "Patsy & Betsy", or "the twins" never one or the other, almost always together. I haven't seen them in years and years but I think they still live in the same town and I can only imagine they still act like twins.

[Ruth]

I would talk to the teacher. Exclusion is a no-no for whatever reason, and she (or he) needs to know that it is going on in the class. We had a similar situation in my older daughter's 1st grade, only in our case it was "pay me a penny and I'll let you be in my club". Clubs were all the rage there for a while -- I think they're a six-year-old thing -- until the teacher twigged and went all Vivian Paley on them ("you can't say you can't play" ... http://www.futurenet.org/article.asp?ID=802).

[serina]

Yes, I agree with Ruth, you need to advise the teacher. They may only be six, but this is actually bullying. Belief is a concept that will be in the curriculum in any case and it might be a good way to address the issue in a classroom environment. In life we meet many different people from all cultures and belief systems and we can only live together in harmony if we are shown how to by the people who have our best interests at heart. Good luck with this, it's only the first of many 'sticky' incidents along the road!

[Aleksandra]

You can move to Canada! OK, I'm just kidding. Maybe.
Now, seriously, you've done your part at this point telling him that different people believe, or not,in different things and that noone has any right to blackmail anyone based on those beliefs, or lack thereof. There's nothing to feel guilty about. I would be immensely proud if my 6-year-old daughter didn't succumb to that kind of peer pressure/borderline bullying to be a part of the game. Patrick has a lot of integrity and it's a rare quality in someone so young. We are an agonstic/atheist family, and like you, we try to teach our kids about kindness, generosity, helping others, respect... We are also fortunate to be living in a major city in Canada, and their exposure to different backgrounds, mother tongues, traditions, religious holidays, etc. is very first-hand. I know for a fact that my daughter's teacher would not tolerate that kind of talk in her classroom, so maybe Jujube is right - could Patrick's teacher step in and intervene here?

On a different note - I love! your blog. I haven't commented before, but have religiously (!!?) been reading it for years.

[erica]

First, I have to share this story from my six year old daughter. Early this school year, I received the following e-mail from A's teacher:

"Hello – hope you are well…wanted to mention something that A said today …we were sitting on the carpet doing Language Arts and she clearly was sitting away from the group…I encouraged her to sit closer to the group and she said that she couldn’t sit by people of other religions b/c it made her cough….I tried to get clarification, but did not get any where….just thought you might want to investigate..thanks!"

It turned out that she just didn't like the way the kid smelled (an issue we'd dealt with, apparently unsuccessfully) in kindergarten, when we explained that people from different cultures eat different foods and thus may have different body odors. A got "culture" mixed up with "religion" and there you go. Not that having your child refusing to sit next to someone b/c his/her culture is different is any better. So we told Kid A that people often can't help how they smell and explained that she could've hurt the other child's feelings and we just don't do that. And I haven't heard of any other "coughing fits."

As for being on the outside, I think Pam L. has it. The kids are learning to be exclusive, and it sucks. In A's group, it was "If you aren't a Brownie, you can't play with us," an attitude that was quickly rebutted both at Brownies and by the first grade teachers (A was oblivious to all this, being too busy playing puppy at recess to be bothered with exclusivity). While kids are going to find the "other," and focus on it, I would probably mention it to his teacher and reiterate that real friends don't expect you to be something you aren't. Or something.

[Karishma]

i agree that the teacher needs to know what's going on. see, you're a very calm, rational person, willing to deal with this with patrick. you're saving her the trouble of dealing with a legitimately furious parent - and with good reason - if it just so happens that they are not as open to discussion as you are, are trying to drill their own beliefs into their child, and get punched in the face with the whole "omg you're going to hell" card. i think you're doing her a favor, acting as an informant.

and hey, it was fine when the topic first came up and you had a discussion about it, and things probably made more sense in patrick's head. but if the boys are using it as a pass into their exclusive domino's club type thing, the teacher really should know.

meanwhile, he should find other kids to play with, if they keep doing it.

[bethany actually]

It sounds to me like the other little boys are just being SIX, and they've chosen "God Jesus" as an arbitrary criterion for exercising the heady power to exclude. Kids that age are ruthless in switching sides and cutting friends one day and then choosing the same friends the next day to be their BFFs. I remember being completely miserable at that age because I had two friends in my class at school who both wanted to be my "best friend" and if I sat at lunch or jump-roped with one, the other would coldly ignore me for a day or two. I just wanted to be friends with them both but for some reason that wasn't what either of them wanted. Ugh. I'm so glad I'm not six anymore.

Oh, wait...my daughter's about to turn five. I still have to go through all of this with her, don't I? *sigh*

[Helen]

Your post is so meaningful to me today, especially when you were talking about respect, beliefs, and the backhanded phase, "you're wrong." I was trying to explain it to my husband since we just had a fight and he kept on saying those exact words, "You're wrong." Of course, he was not convinced. Oh if only you could be here and talk some sense into him. I wish the world were filled with more sensible and understanding people as you.

[Tess]

If you know the child's parents already, I would speak to them, they might not be aware how exclusive the boy is being. Kids tend to really take hold of new ideas, religious or otherwise. If not, I would address your concerns to the teacher. But I would embrace Patrick's beliefs, if he ever develops true belief in God or Buddah, or something else, even if they are different than your own. I am Christian with traditional beliefs and the entirety of my family does not believe in any diety and run further left politically than I do. But my family loves me, and respects my beliefs even if they are different. So please be open with Patrick and the twinks, if they choose something to believe in.

[Elle]

This happened to me all the time when I was little. I was raised staunchly atheist by my father-- as indoctrinated an atheist as some children are indoctrinated into a religion. But my mother sent me to a private Christian preschool and then private Catholic school. She taught me to be tolerant and accepting, and my dad agreed with that-- but he also told me that they were full of shit.

I'm sure it has had some negative effects on my tolerance, but damned if it didn't bolster me up every time I got the "you're going to hell" shtick. Or when my best friend told me that I shouldn't be allowed to have a Christmas tree because I don't believe in Jesus. Outwardly, I would smile vaguely and say "I don't agree" but inside, all I was thinking was "Christ, this kid is a fucking nutjob". The inner monologue sounded a lot like my dad.

Now I'm pretty sure the other kid had a very similar inner monologue about me-- most likely a head-shaking, sighing, "she is so wrong about life and I am right" kind of attitude. The thing is, I don't know if I could have withstood that kind of treatment (or such completely horrifying assertions, like after death I would be tormented in an eternal hellfire if I said "goddamn" or didn't go to church every Sunday) if I didn't have the knowledge that they were being judgmental little creeps, backed up by my parents.

My advice would be to give Patrick the whole respect everyone's beliefs talk, but make sure to follow it up that you do not agree with what those other kids said. I don't see anything wrong with letting your son know that while you respect they have every right to believe what they want, YOU do not believe that-- and tell him why.

The best friend who told me I wasn't "allowed" to celebrate Christmas turned out to be a lesbian. And as much as I am for gay rights, sometimes I DO get a little bit of satisfaction of the irony of it all. I wonder how she likes being told arbitrarily what she can and can't do?

[jd]

Socially, three is always the wrong number of kids. You get three of them together, and someone is always out.

Three is stable for a stool or structural element, but socially? not so much.

[Warren Dew]

No offense, but it sounds like in taking the teaching opportunity with Patrick, you ended up not actually answering his question. That may have looked to him like you were avoiding the question because you didn't have good reasons for your beliefs.

I think perhaps you would have been better off answering his question more directly with something like "neither; I don't think you'll go to hell, but I don't think the other kid was lying, either; I think he's just mistaken."

Of course, the question is not what you could have done, but what you do now. I don't know that there's anything to be done immediately, but I'd suggest that when it comes up again, you take the opportunity to explain your own beliefs and why you believe as you do.

[Crystal]

I think the teacher needs to know (not the parents, it's not that big a deal, and these are THEIR snowflakes). No big deal, just and offhand, btw, just something to be aware of, I love so and so, but religion was brought out in the form of a bat to the head.... Patrick's fine, I'm fine, but for the sake of knowing....

I think Pam L is right, the excuse is the excuse, religion just happened to be at their fingertips. Which means there are really two issues to address with Patrick: the how did it feel and what can you learn from it, and the catharsis of discussing what he does or doesn't really believe, and being able to figure it out for himself. Lots of open ended questions. Let him take it from there.

Other than that, you did fine. Are you looking to be Mother Theresa with a crystal ball now? ;)

[peeks]

When I was a child we were just expected to deal with that sort of thing, but thankfully the world has changed. It is bullying and I agree with Ruth too.

(what a bugger that they chose religion to be the excluding factor)

[Hetty Fauxvert]

Have to agree with others that the teacher needs to be brought in on this. Kids do like to exclude each other because it gives them a sense of power, but messing around with others kids' minds re their religion is just a bit much! And although Patrick is probably made of stronger stuff, that sort of thing can have a lasting effect. I still remember the little hellion Baptists in my elementary school... the instant they found out that my parents and I did not go to church, they'd gleefully announce, "You're going to Haay-ulll!" and that would be the end of that potential friendship. Ouch, still hurts 35 years later! Nip this in the bud -- if not for Patrick, then for the other kids.

And yes, our twins seem to have a special something going on, too. I hope so much that they will always be friends. My husband's brother (not a twin) has decided to "unfriend" my husband, and it just breaks his heart. And mine by extension.

[Hetty Fauxvert]

Um, not trying to hog your blog here ... but I just wanted to echo what a couple of others said, in that if Patrick and/or the littles actually do end up with some sort of religion or belief someday, that you will try to be open to that. My parents raised me without any religious instruction whatever, in what I think was their attempt to be atheists without actually having to cop to it. However, with my personality type, I was never happy until (after trying on many different belief systems) I finally *did* find something I could honestly believe in. In retrospect, I appreciate my parents' attempt not to influence me, but a complete lack of religion just didn't work for me.

[Jody]

These kids are being mean. If they said, "you can't play with us because you're not wearing blue," or "you can't play with us because you have blond hair," what would you say to Patrick? What would you say to the teacher? What would you say to the parents?

Figure that out, and then do it.

(Christians got two rules from Jesus: Love God. Love Each Other. Those kids need a refresher course.)

[coffeegrl]

Okay, so while I think I might have been all rational and thinky about this situation (and fully expect that we might experience something similar one day), I don't think I would have been as calm if the child had said to my daughter, "Only the white kids can play with the dominoes". Nope, I'm pretty sure I would have lost my sh*t.

I get that the kids may just be looking for an excuse (the kind of sneakers you're wearing, your hairstyle, whatever suits) and may not even understand the significance of what they're *really* saying, but there are insidious and potentially hurtful things out there that other parents are actively teaching their kids and that can creep into child's play.
Personally I think I'd want to be sure that the teacher knew what was going on - there may be other similar situations that lead to some kind of classroom lesson. But I wouldn't rule out talking to the parents directly either....However, since my daughter is only a little over 1, I'm hoping you'll find the answer first for those of us who are about 5 years behind you.

[Andrea]

A. I think you did a very lovely job in approaching the situation. Lovely.

B. Re: the thing at the end? Tell him to find someone else to play with. Christianity doesn't teach "don't play with kids who don't believe". That's just kids being kids, and next time it could be "only white kids can play" or "only kids whose parents drive an expensive car can play" or something equally offensive, or "only kids in Mrs. Jones' class." I wouldn't put too much into it.

[Rebeccaof8]

Stated again and again...talk to the teacher. It doesn't have to be a big deal (and I wouldn't talk to the parents about it...they may be nutjobs and "proud" of their kids for this type of stance!) The person who said the "by the way..." approach said it best, I think. Sometimes, interestingly enough, by doing this - you also get "the rest of the story." I have had this happen, where I found out what MY child was doing before whatever offense that was brought to my attention. I think a simple response from Patrick of "I don't believe that" would be appropriate...don't worry - he's only 6. He probably won't be these kids friends next year anyway! There will always be something, if not God, something else for kids to disagree on. This year at my kids' school it was the presidential election. WOW, you should have heard what some of the kids (in 3rd grade!) were saying against Barack Obama! Let's put it this way, one kid even got sent to the principal's office. Unbelievable!

[TeacherMommy]

There's a world of difference between faith and religion. I just rediscovered my faith after 25 years of running away and ending up in despair. I still hate religion. Religion poisons faith.

Unfortunately, many people confuse the two, and it sounds like that's what those kids are doing. If their parents took some time to clarify things a bit like you're trying to do with Patrick, they might realize that, hey, they aren't being very Christ-like in their little Jesus club. It would be rather ironic if your brilliant little kid, being brought up in your household, were to come back next time they say such a thing with "Uh, that's not how Jesus did things. What Would Jesus Do?" or some such thing. I'm sure he can come up with something a bit more brilliant than that.

As I recall, Jesus pretty much chewed out people like that--called them "vipers". They were the Pharisees.

[Megan]

Yup, I'm an utter heathen but thought Patrick could put on his very best holy expression and say, sadly, "I don't think Jesus would say something like that, do you?"

Then he should kick 'em in the shins.

But, you know, with Christian love in his soul and all that.

[Beth]

A number of things come to mind:

I have twin boys, now almost nine, and truly, yes, there is something wonderfully wonderful about their relationship (they are fraternal). The get on one another's nerves at times and are as different in personality as yours seem to be. They seem to be at the age where they are trying to differentiate a bit from one another (they've always had the same set of friends), but at the same time are fiercely protective of one another. Overall, they're lovely.

That being said, yes indeedy Patrick can be effing with you at the age of six -- especially because he's so smart and intuitive. One thing I'm realizing as a parent is that very few aspects of kids are mutually exclusive: he can be challenging you a bit AND be feeling pretty crappy about being left out by the other boys.

That said, I agree with TeacherMommy above. I am one of those wacky Christians (not really, I think we're pretty normal) and I would kick my kid's Christian ass for acting like that! That's NOT how Jesus would do it (well, duh, right?) and if it continues, perhaps Patrick and/or you could confront that behavior with the teacher? It saddens me that kids would act like that, but as others have said, kids are kids (and hopefully, their parents would be as appalled as I am? But who knows?).

Good luck with this. You're a good mom, which I hope you already know.

[Amy]

I struggle myself with the concept of faith and religion. Through out the ages religion has been used as a for oppression and to gain obedience. Some faiths are even more extreme. I really dislike organized religion. And yet, I struggle with the concept of faith. While I don't attend church, and never really have, my three-year-old has started attending a Bible church with my MIL. He seems to like it. And I admit, God is an easy answer to a lot of difficult questions.

In the case of Patrick, I would explain that no one should tell you what you should believe. Every one has the right to his or her own beliefs, and you can choose to accept those beliefs or not. If these children continue to refuse to play with him because his beliefs are different, you should explain that he should continue to respect their beliefs, but find other playmates who will respect his.

[llcsis]

Hahah - pffft on 1st grade and it's cliques. It's like mini jr high.
My daughter was constantly confused day to day whether she was "IN the club" or "NOT in the club" - she learned to just ignore it and go off to play somewhere else.

My son came home early 1st grade, and had a similar hushed embarrassed bedtime blurt. "(So &so) said my mom's so big she wouldn't fit into a garbage can" and was startled when I burst into laughter and said "how big is the garbage can?" I told him that "so&so" was just testing him to see what kind of guy he was. If he would cry, laugh, start a fight, etc. Suggested next time to just laugh and make up other ridiculous (non hurtful) things. They're 13 now and still good friends.

[Melina]

I don't think it's fair to assume that the parents instructed their children to exclude -- they are 6 and 6 year olds are pretty rigid. I like the idea of Patrick asking them if that behavior is really their understanding of Jesus's message, but you might want to help him think through a bunch of options -- he could decide to say he believes regardless of where he's really at with the faith question because no one has the right to call us out like that. he could stick to his agnostic guns and refuse to play. he could genuinely accept Jesus as his personal savior. he could quote the bible. he could ask the boys to wash his feet. Generating options is fun and empowering.

[carosgram]

Or you could teach him about social lies.

[beyond]

ugh. i have to ask myself whether these boys have conversations with their parents about r-e-s-p-e-c-t at the dinner table... it's a form of bullying.

[Anna]

The issue isn't about religion. It's about exclusivity and how children use it to make themselves feel special. I heard that same line ("you can't play with us because..." ) but for me it wasn't belief in God as the conversation took place in a parochial school yard, it was the kind of shoes I was wearing.

The only reason Jesus is being used as an excuse is because it was the most recent example of Patrick being set apart from the other two boys. Since this isn't about religion, how would you coach Patrick to respond to kids who aren't playing nice and sharing?

[andrea]

You casually mention it to the teacher because they're just finding a reason to be exclusionary or to tease/bully him. Even if it's a one-time deal, the teacher needs to be aware so that she can watch out for that kind of thing, and maybe give a lesson or two on tolerance and the place of religion in the public school classroom.

My daughter is the same age as Patrick and we keep having the same conversation, i.e., "Mom, did you ever believe in God?" and I, too, am trying to explain that religious belief is great if it works for you, but it's not my cup of tea. Maybe it will be for her, who knows, and she has some seriously church-going little friends, so maybe she's worried for my eternal soul already.

[Laurie]

I suggest that you talk to Patrick's teacher and possibly organize a meeting with her and the children's parents in question. Someone needs to sit down with these kids and explain to them what they are doing is wrong and noone with do that until it is put out there on the table so to speak. By refusing to allow Patrick to play they were discriminating against him based on his religious or lack of religious beliefs and that is wrong. Tell Patrick that in this country we all have the freedom to choose to believe in God or not to and that noone has the right to exclude him based on his choices. Yes, even six year olds need to know that discrimination and bullying is wrong because until it's pointed out that the behavior is unexceptable it will continue and as they age it will become the norm and possibly worse.

[MFA Mama]

I don't know what to say about Patrick's recent conversion, but my seven-year-old recently announced that he believes in Jesus. My beliefs and yours seem pretty much in line, but I greeted the announcement with a "and that's okay!" and launched into a little speech about how that's one of the great things about America in general and our family in particular, that you can believe or not believe in ANYTHING YOU WANT, etc. and then trailed off and pushed my dinner around on my plate some with my fork. Then the little turd busted out laughing. "I don't believe in Jesus, Mommy, I was just messing with you. You should have seen your FACE!"

Kids.

Patrick doesn't strike me as the type to convert over dominoes. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like him to me. Then again, six is the age where peer-pressure starts. *shrugs*

[Jesse]

I know the key phrase everyone talks about when dealing with other people's religions is "respect", but as I get older, I find it a less than suitable response. If someone told you that they believed a giant unicorn ruled the universe and could hear your every thought and knew if you truly believed in him or not and if you didn't, when you died, you were going to spend eternity in a giant hole full of bad things, would you "respect" their ideas or would you think they were crazy and perhaps move a safe distance away? Now substitute giant unicorn for God and giant hole for hell and you've got mainstream religion in just about any flavor but a handful of exceptions. We do not encourage respect for crazy ideas in any other area of our lives. Religion has been responsible for most of the atrocities committed in this world. Its views on things like contraception, abortion, gay rights, the death penalty and a host of others cause untold amounts of needless suffering around the world, particularly in poorer countries. And yet we continue to "respect." As long as we "respect", we are, on some level, condoning their actions and beliefs.

I say teach respect for PEOPLE, not arbitrary belief systems that date back to the bronze age. Children should have the right to not have their brains filled with nonsense shrouded in layers of fear and guilt. IF, when they are of the age that we allow them to make other decisions like voting and going off to war, they would like to fill their own minds with such things, that is their right. I will respect a person's right to choose that for themselves, but I do not have to respect their beliefs or their decision to indoctrinate children who don't know any better.

[SarcastiCarrie]

I'm guessing the boys got it wrong. The minister said something about "Domingo" and they heard "dominoes". Like that old prayer, "My father can beat your father in Dom-in-oes."

[Anon for this]

Your last two posts have hit on one of my most cringe-inducing and sad childhood memories. When I was in 2nd grade or so, my church (baptist) had a "revival" - a week of church services in the evenings meant to re-awaken our enthusiasm and beliefs, and an opportunity to share the services with our friends and neighbors.

We children were encouraged to invite non-churchgoing friends in our neighborhoods and schools. A dear friend of mine from down the street came and sat next to me during the service.

At the end of the service, as is the tradition in that church, there was an "invitation" - a (long) hymn sung by the church while we hoped and prayed for someone's heart to be touched and led to accept Jesus as their savior. If anyone were so moved, they were supposed to walk to the front of the church and speak with the pastor and commit their souls to christ.

I hounded that poor girl during the invitation. I whispered "...but you will go to HELL if you don't believe!" I was urgent, concerned, insistent, and I really beleived I was "witnessing" to her - doing the right thing to "save" her. My heart was in the right place, I wasn't trying to bully her - I really believed what I was saying, and she was my friend.

She went forth and spoke with the pastor. Who then spoke with her mom when she was driven home that evening from the church service. I don't know what was said, I don't know what her mom's beliefs were, but I do know that I was told (gently) that what I did was not okay. And I was mortified. And confused. And I still carry a lot of weird feelings of guilt and shame for doing that to her, and confusion and betrayal because in my mind I just did what I was "supposed" to do.

I have different beliefs now about religion (perhaps partly due to this experience), and I am still so sorry for that.

Not taking up for people who use it as a way to exclude Patrick from playing dominoes, but just offering some perspective on what kids might be feeling when they do stuff like this. Or they might not have good intentions at all. But either way, they are probably getting some strong messages from their homes and churches.

Thanks for the therapy session.

[Bella]

@Anon for this: Oh... I so feel for you and hope that some day you'll find some peace over this situation. I can completely understand where you were coming from as a child indoctrinated into a belief system that didn't make total sense and I'm sure that friend of yours either has completely forgotten the incident or has some pretty strong anti-organized religion beliefs (at least those that use flat-out bullying and extreme forms of shaming and peer pressure which, um, yeah, is pretty much the majority). Either way, that friend is probably feeling A LOT less pain over the situation than you have...

[Julie]

I agree with the several posters who say "God Jesus" was a random criterion for pairing up and then having fun excluding, and that it probably had nothing to do with Patrick. My 4-year-old's classmates all adore swapping out groups/teams/matching based on who's a girl or boy, who's wearing what, etc. I can tell the teachers have stepped in because now those announcements go 'We're both wearing blue shoes, so we are a team, but Daddy can't be on our team because his shoes are black. But ... [quoting the teacher voice] we can still be friends, OK?"

I do think the teacher should know to keep an eye out for more such behavior, but beyond that I would tell P., if he wants to know why they're doing it, that they're enjoying having a shared interest and he might want to find other fun things to do until they get over it.

[Becky]

For religious kids, they don't seem very accepting of others. And I don't know if it's religion or not, but kids can be exclusionary (is that a word? My addled brain doesn't know.) assholes over anything they feel superior about.

I remember a chick in elementary school wouldn't let me play with them because I didn't wear a bra yet. In my defense, I didn't need a bra nor did lack of chesticles make a bit of difference in the game. They were just being turds.

Not that this makes it any easier, but you know.

[Kate]

This is another teachable moment: if it were me, I would use this as an opportunity to explain to Patrick that now they aren't respecting him beliefs, and that feels bad, and that is why people shouldn't act that way. Of course, all he wants is to get to play with the kids, but at some point it will be a lesson that he will absorb.

Also, your kids are a month older than my daughter and they don't say no? Can we trade? V says "yeah" only occasionally, but "nononnono" with waving hands and shaking head has been in her playbook for quite a while now.

[Lisa]

Wow, that sucks. Kids are so mean sometimes. Thoughts:

1. I am not a member of any organized religion, but I can tell you (and you can tell Patrick) that I am quite sure Jesus/God would never keep you from playing if you weren't sure how you stood with them - and that's according to their religion.

2. What the kids were doing has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power and control. The fact that that kind of thing can creep into religion makes me batty, but I refuse to generalize and say that is always the case.

3. I wish I had an answer for every mean thing other kids have done to my 5 year old (already!). The best you can do is instill confidence, which it sounds like you have done. For all his testing, Patrick seems like he has a great sense of self. Good job!!

[Beth]

My vote is with Pam L. Kids will exclude for all sorts of reasons. This kid just happens to use his religious beliefs that way (unfortunate at best). Patrick had a fabulous response ("That's not fair!"). Teach to play with others until his friend pulls his head out and not to do the same to other people.

My it's so much easier to give you advice than to make these decisions on my own. ;^) Rock on momma!