Unintentionally Redundant

Sometimes I write a post and then I worry that I did a poor job of explaining myself. So I have kinda been following the comments on that last one with my face half-averted, lest someone blow up at me. My concern was that you would think I was mad at the very nice kid for mentioning eternal damnation to my superspecial snowflake; when in fact my fear was that Patrick might have behaved like a lemonhead and upset the very nice kid. In my world what you believe is a whole lot less significant than how you treat people. But I needn't have worried. You were more than capable of connecting the dots for me and shoring up any inadequacies in my narration. I think Marsha summed it up nicely in the comments by saying it was a teachable moment and the only question was: what did I feel like teaching? Since Patrick was obviously well aware of the sizeable gap between our beliefs and that of his schoolmate it seemed like the right moment to don my magnificent grey hat and go the R-E-S-P-E-C-T route. I talked about how lucky his friend is to have such strongly held beliefs and how much pleasure and comfort their faith must bring to their family. It always seems sort of backhanded to me to say, you're wrong... but best of luck with that! So I tried to be honest but positive and talk about what I have always felt with regard to most organized religions - they're not for me but it would be oh so nice if they were. Becky (and later Monica - hi Monica!) pointed out that the child was not trying to be mean or spiteful in stating his beliefs; they are what they are. And I read their comments and nodded like a bobble-head because it was one of the things I wanted to make especially clear to Patrick: these are beliefs - as in that which is held to be true - and they are very important and you do not have to share them to respect them and their importance.

This is not to say that I cannot imagine someone, even a child, using his faith to cudgel someone. I can. Quite easily. I just didn't think that was what was happening here. Furthermore, if I had discovered Patrick lying under his bed in a dark room with a rosary he had constructed from yarn and Cheerios muttering "Can't sleep. God will get me" I would have had a very different reaction. Instead Patrick phrased it in the neutral third person (X says you will go to hell if you...) and he did so with that six year old gleam (you know the one?) that look in the eye that says: I have found something that challenges you; so how do you like them apples of Hesperides, mother?

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and, as always, for your almost otherwordly civility.

Tonight at dinner Patrick announced that he now believes in God.

"Congratulations," I said.

"It's great; you should try it," he urged.

"OK," I said.

He went back to eating his fish.

I called my mother from the pantry.

"MOM! Patrick is going evangelical on me."

She started laughing.

"It couldn't have happened to a nicer couple," she said and hung up.

Do you know the musical The Fantasticks? It has a song in it called Plant a Radish (something like that) which talks about how bewildering it is to have any expectations whatsoever concerning your children. Unlike radishes they come out any which way - with your progeny it's hodge-podgenee.

This is a sincere question because I just have the one six year old. Are they all like this? Is this a time of testing boundaries and generally effing with you? I feel like Patrick's lab rat 95% of the time. Is he being sincere, silly, serious, sarcastic? I never have any idea. Not just about the religion thing - it's like every conversation I have with him involves my groping along trying to figure out what he wants from me. It's exhausting. 

Things are a lot simpler with the twinkles, especially since they both know "Yeah" (yaaaaaah) but neither of them has yet twigged to "No."

Do you want zucchini? Yaaaaaaah (until Caroline actually gets the zucchini into her mouth and remembers how much she dislikes it - then she scrapes it off her tongue into a gross little greenish heap on her tray. Edward's like, oh, hey, are you going to eat that?)

I had this weird thunderbolt moment the other day as I was going through photographs. I suddenly realized, "Wow, they are REALLY twins." It had nothing to do with looking the same - or not, as the case may be - but as I glanced at a couple of days worth of pictures I suddenly realized how close they are to each other.

Steve's cousin married a guy who has a twin sister and one of the things he said to me after they were born is "They will be grateful for each other their whole lives. It's a relationship unlike anything else. Very special."

And although at the time I was touched by his obvious affection for his sister part of me looked at my little burritos and thought, yeah, yeah, I'm very close to my brother, too.

I don't know though. It is kinda special.

Can you see Edward's anxious little face in the window? He wasn't sure he wanted to go outside but then they sat there staring at each other for a few moments.

And out he comes.

Steve wanted to know if they are able to silently communicate with each other, like ants.

---- oh hell and damnation! I just went upstairs to tuck Patrick in and got this story in a whispered, embarrassed rush: today at school Very Nice Kid and Still Nice But Rather More Spirited Kid were playing with dominoes. Patrick wanted to play too. Their response? You can only play if you believe in God Jesus.

I said, "Oh. I. See. And what did you think about what they said?"

Patrick said, "It didn't hurt my feelings! But I said that's not fair. Can't I just play too?"

"And?"

"No, they said I couldn't if I don't believe."

No wonder he became a convert over dinner - only believers get to play with dominoes. I could kick myself for failing to follow up on Patrick's sudden conversion and for thinking he was being deliberately provocative without reason. I feel guilty and troubled.   

So... now what? Now what do I do? 

Comments

[lb]

I agree with other posters who thought a chat with the teacher was in order. And that this is likely not about religion, it is about exclusion. I remember when my sister was small, there was a little girl who said "You can only play if you are wearing a dress" and so my sister cried many tears and threw tantrums if there wasn't a clean dress to be worn, until the teachers were informed and put a stop to it. And with my own kids, I've seen exclusion on a lot of different criteria - boys/girls only is a common one, or only 6 year olds can play, thus excluding the one who is still 5. The religion thing does crank this one up a notch, but I think it's more properly dealt with as any other bully-type exclusion.

As for helpful tips for Patrick, here are my thoughts:
-Never say "Can I play?" That is an opener for the other kids to say "No." If this is a chronic problem for Patrick, you can teach him some other skills for when he wants to join a game (watch for a while, throw in a suggestion, say something like "I'll play the winner!" or "I'll be the dog!")
-Groups of three are hard. Help him to understand that a lot of kids have a hard time getting along in groups of three (the numbers thing should appeal to him!) and that he might have better luck joining a larger group.

[Erika]

re: RESPECT--I believe the proper term for that was not a hat, but rather a chapeau.

Another vote for a) kids were being exclusionary because they can, and b) talk to the teacher. Public school, right? The school probably has rules about both exclusionary tactics and about proselytizing. Not that the kids were really proselytizing, but if Patrick had been Jewish or Muslim it would have been a big, big problem. Secular humanists should have the same rights.

[Deanna]

I remember when I was small couching every sincere question or comment I had inside a bit of silliness or off-handedness, so if my parents were mad at what I said or thought it was stupid, it would be easy for me to play it off and say, "Oh, I was just kidding!"

[Karen]

Geez Louise. We are raising our kids in the Catholic faith, but have friends from many other faiths, and I have never heard a hint of any kids using their religion as a weapon to cudgel other kids.

I would probably tell my kid--if a similar situation occured--to say, if that happened next time, "Well, you guys have a nice time, but I don't think Jesus would treat people like that. He spent time with lots of people who didn't believe the same things he did." And then walk away and let the little eejits chew on THAT.

And i would also point out that this was an excellent lesson as to how there are people who call themselves Christians who do not, in fact, act at all like Christians should. And then they make the rest of us look bad. STOP IT already. Jeez.

[liz s]

yikes, being of the non-dominant faith in Utah, I have encountered a lot of that. In elementary school we weren't invited to parties and I was told that I was a devil worshiper.

My sister was told in a public school none-the-less that people who drink wine, like Catholics are bad.

As an adult, twice, I have been told that I am so nice that I should be (insert dominant religion here). Really, I can't just be nice.

I take as it builds character.

Poor Patrick, though, its hard when you are young to understand these issues. I think ou are an awesome mom and you will help him figure it out.

[Gina]

Not too long ago my 3rd grade daughter walked over to her friends' table to eat lunch with them. Who do you want to be President? They asked. My daughter paused....Uhhhhh....I don't know...McCain? Well, we want Obama so you have to sit over there. And they pointed to another bench for her. WTH? They are 9 years old! I told my daughter that 9 year olds do not need to discuss politics (really ridiculous), but I have also encouraged her to stand by what she believes in (which, when it comes to politics at age 9 is...nothing...). But there have been other incidents that have come up and I constantly tell her that if one friend says you have to do this or that and you don't want to, then go play with another friend. Don't be manipulated into something you do not want to do.

[Blogosaurus]

Hmm... you know, it is possible this is not a plot by the religious. Some lovely children do not exclude others, but it is far more typical for children to form cliques and little societies. Adults do it too, only we have better rationalizations ("My friends and I have so much in common!"). The god angle may have little if anything to do with these kids having a serious worry about the religious purity of their friends (seriously, how much sophisticated thought could a typical 6 year old put in to such weighty issues?) and much more to do with a convenient excuse for what most kids do naturally: shore up social relationships by excluding others. This will get even more pronounced in adolescence, when the social environment outside the family home takes on a more formative role than the family itself.

So, yes, it's rotten of those kids to make arbitrary rules and exclude Patrick. Maybe they are little fanatics but probably they are just normal kids. Going after the parents or the school on religious concern grounds is probably misplaced. Not to mention futile - any parent who would overtly teach their child to exclude someone from a different group (sex, race, belief system or lack thereof) will not be amenable to a good sit-down over helping the kids get along.

I think your approach has been great - listening to Patrick, being honest about your position, and teaching tolerance. More parents should do this, in my opinion! Since there will always be kids and teens and adults who treat him this way, helping him deal with the painful feelings with integrity is a wonderful gift.

[Jen]

Yes kids exclude and yes, this could well be arbitrary. However, in this situation it's twice in a row on the same topic, which makes me believe that it may be turning into a bit of a thing.

I'd go with all the other "by the way" mentions to the teacher. The teacher can watch for it, see if it's happening to other kids too or not, if there's something else going on, etc. The teacher is perfectly positioned to remind the class about playing nicely, following the class rules (which don't mention God Jesus) etc. It's much easier for the teacher to give a generic smackdown of the exclusionary bullying than to discuss religious beliefs with the other parents, that's for sure!

[Pam L]

I guess if it continues to happen I might mention it to the teacher, but Patrick is a pretty smart kid, he'll figure out what he needs/wants to do about it. Sometimes having parents involved makes it harder on the kid being excluded or picked on. When I was a kid in my neighborhood, there was always someone on the outs with the others for some silly reason for a while. I may have complained to my parents about how they were acting when it was my turn to be excluded, but I don't remember them running over to the other parents to get involved in it. They probably told me to find something else to do , and I survived with my self esteem intact. School is a little different, of course, but I would probably wait to see what happens or drop an email to the teacher just to clue her in to what was being said in her classroom.

[margalit]

If you were Jewish, and this child said that to Patrick, what would you do? Would you allow it to be ignored? Would you say something to the teacher? Would you corral the mom at pick-up time and tell her what her delightful son was doing, and how UN-christ-like it was?

I don't care what the motive is behind this little shit's behavior, it's rude, exclusionary and needs to be stopped before he tries it with someone that WILL take it very poorly. His parents need a nudge to teach their child that religion is a private matter. If they don't get that, perhaps the school will help them learn it.

As for the twin thing, mine are almost 17 and they STILL worry about each other all the time. If one is gone out, the other needs to know where and what time they'll be back. Even with totally different friends, the need to know what the other is doing at all times is deep seated.

[liz]

A couple things. First, kids tend to have a sort of liquid understanding of the word "believe." I remember my (Jewish) mother getting very upset when I came home from playing with some Christian friends and telling her I believed in Jesus. What I *meant* was that the idea that Jesus existed seemed plausible enough to me. Unlike, say, Santa or the Easter Bunny. Sure, I believed in Jesus. So while children's "beliefs" shouldn't be discounted, it's probably best to handle it exactly like you did--accepting, but assuming they're not professing things that will be cement constants in their life from here on out.

[liz]

Second, there is another interesting learning opportunity here. Religion in the bigger world is often tied to other things that might be enticing. A strictly non-Christian-raised child might hear, "You can only have this tree with all the presents and the calendar with chocolate in it if you believe in Jesus." A non-Jewish-raised kid might hear, "You can only have eight nights of gifts and fun if you don't believe in Jesus." Smaller iterations of this extend all the way down to marbles. Of course, marbles isn't intrinsically tied to religion, but the point remains that people often use religion as a means of exclusion. I guess I would encourage Patrick to stand by his beliefs and not participate if his friends are going to draw arbitrary distinctions, but it might be fun to let him have his own teaching opportunity. Perhaps there is something equally cool he can bring that would entice his friends to want to join. He could agree and casually mention how nice it is that he doesn't have religious restrictions tied to his playthings because then they can all play. That might only work in my head and not the real world, but something to that effect might affect the other kids' attitudes in the long run. Or they may simply get bored with or feel bad for excluding a friend. Kids are fickle!

[terri c]

Who knew that the real reason why people believe in God is to be able to play dominoes??? Seriously though I do agree that this was just one thing for the kids to use to be exclusionary. At my elementary school there wasn't any religious exclusion (it was a Catholic school!) but as the clumsy, ugly-shoed, FAT kid I had plenty of practice being excluded. It ain't just Christians you know. I think Patrick handled it very well, actually, didn't get knocked off center at all. Your talk with him probably helped him a lot. Also they are all adorable.

[Chris]

Dear Patrick,

Get some new friends.

C

[Christa]

At this age, they could have just as easily said, "Only cool kids can play." I think this has very little to do with religion and everything to do with helping Patrick stand up for himself (which he sounds like he was doing pretty well with for a 6 year-old) and mentioning this to the teacher so that she/he can nip this kind of exclusionary behavior in the bud.

Also a nice time for a curious kid like yours to learn about freedom of (and from) religion. Give him a mini Constitution he can carry in his back pocket. He can give them chapter and verse (pun intended) next time they pull the believers-only stunt!

[G]

Speaking as a Jew from America whonow lives in Germany, I agree with the above poster who said that theis was the same as "You can't play if you are(insert color here)". Really, this is where the beginning of American understanding of racism and anti-semitism and exenophobia starts: right here. Tell the teacher and if it continues I would follow it up further. Even if your son is strong enough not to be damaged by this, this type of modeling is what creates the American character rather than the more nationalistic and xenophobic German one (where that would be illegal, but still considered normal at home). Sorry to be all knee-jerky, but this is a very important topic to me. And I am seeing it here with my 5 year old.

[Sweltering]

Yup, I agree a "by the by" to the teacher is in order. Not about kids being exclusionary, but by being exclusionary on religious grounds. Sooner or later someone else will NOT cotton well to such comments.
And if I get nasty, frankly, they should be taken to task for such bool-shit.

[Karen]

What Lisa said, and I add to her Good Job! And it is indeed a teachable moment. Also an AFGE. You can't tell him what that is though. Another F'ing Growth Experience.

It has been my experience (she said peering over her glasses) that I most often don't have to DO anything. When he whispered this to you did he ask you to do something or was he confiding?

Rather than doing, it is so often about being, principally about being there for them. I often find that what kept me up at night, they have solved by morning.

I have to be there while THEY do something. I get to watch, support, discuss, revise, re-direct, sigh, fret and pace. But doing something about it is their job. He did something, he declared his belief in God. Patrick is extraordinarily bright, and he will do something else tomorrow, and sooner or later he will find what suits him in regards to these children. Odds are he will realize that they are mean and exclusionary and that playing with them is a hollow victory at best. If it persists and becomes more troublesome, then meet with the teacher and discuss so maybe she can explain that even if their God Jesus thinks it's ok to be mean and exclusionary, the school frowns on it as a general rule.

But your kids are great and you don't really need my advice. Oh and yes he can totally be effing with you at 6, and he will continue to do so, and you will be shaking your head for years to come.

[Alex]

Chiming it to agree that the boys are probably just experimenting with excluding people, and have no idea that the criterion for exclusion/inclusion that they've chosen is a hot-button one with adults. I remember a few days in first or second grade where a few girls divided up everyone at recess into clubs--one was people with earrings and barrettes, one was people with barrettes but not earrings, earrings and not barrettes, etc. I also remember reading an article or blog post or something (maybe someone else will know more?) where some young kids tried out the inclusion/exclusion game for the first time...and chose skin color as the criterion. Whoops. None of them had racist parents or any exposure to racist attitudes, it was just a difference that they noticed for the first time at the same time that they developed an interest in exclusion games.

I don't agree that "nice kids" will never exclude anyone--I think all kids discover the power of exclusion at some point and experiment with it. And even the nicest kids will exclude a kid who always disrupts a game, who cheats, etc. But I do think that it's important for adults to communicate right when these games start that excluding people based on their personal characteristics is not acceptable.

(With older kids, you probably do have to make the distinction that they don't have to let themselves be trampled over by the kid who hits, cheats, or insists on picking the game all the time: it's all right to tell that kid, "You can only play if you don't cheat (hit, etc.)," or "you can play the game that we're playing, but we aren't going to switch to a new game just because you want to." But at the same time, you can't exclude him forever because he hit or was bossy once.)

So I agree that you should give the teacher a heads-up that this situation has come up and you know she'll want to keep and eye on it and/or address it with the class.

I'm also not sure that excluding people based on religion (or other significant characteristic) as a wee one leads one down to the primrose path to being a grown-up bigot. Maybe kids growing up in diverse schools, who use these characteristics in their first exclusion games will grow up to see racism (or religious bigotry, bigotry against people with different kinds of families, etc) as essentially babyish--no more appropriate for an adult than choosing who to play with based on whether they wear barrettes or not.

(And just as a datapoint on the twin thing, my dad has a twin sister. They're two of four kids, and aren't especially close.)

[winecat]

I want to know what kind of a world it is when parents think it's ok to teach their kids to use religion as a weapon? That's just wrong, 6 year olds or any kid for that matter should not be indoctrinated.

[marta]

Talk to the teacher, because I bet it violates the class rules to put conditions on playing together -- at least conditions other than just following the class rules.

[uberimma]

Yeah, talk to the teacher. I'd leave the parents out of it--just mention it to the teacher. She can talk to them if she wants.

"God Jesus." Maybe I should just leave that one alone...

[Queenie]

Have I mentioned how much I love the phrase "superspecial snowflake"? It cracks me up every time.

I agree with some of the other posters--I don't think this is just about religion. There are always going to be some kids saying "you can only do 'x' with us if 'y'" (you can only go to the movies with us if you steal beer from your parents, etc.). I think you've got to teach Patrick (and the twins, eventually) that there will always be people in this world who want to define the circumstances under which they interact him, and it's up to Patrick to decide if those circumstances are a) in accordance with how he's been raised and b) otherwise acceptable to him. I have absolutely no suggestions on how you get that across to a six year old, though--haven't been there myself! Good luck.

[Elizabeth]

My husband and I don't have children, but I'd like to give my two cents. Decisions like this deserve a good story to back them up- I keep thinking of Harry Potter. A way to let him know that things are not always fair, and often the right thing is not the easy thing. But, that story might be for later in life... You are a very fine mother and have taught your child well! I only hope to do half as well!

[Denise]

OK, so I was checking out your new blog post on my phone as my flight landed tonight, and I was so flattered to see my comment referenced...but then you attributed it to Marsha! Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!

[sozzled]

this is where I'd buy a kegerator :-)

[minni]

you do have the funniest smartest kids! like you, i have an older boy and b/g twins. and like your eddybear, my williebear looks out for his sister. it is just incredibly cute. my twins are 2 yrs 2 mos old and i'm just having such a great time with them! i only realise how great ... after they are all in bed!

[Felicity]

Teach Patrick about ALL the Gods and Goddesses of every culture and religion you can thing of, including those awesome ancient ones Kids love so much. (Ra is just SO cool!) Tell him, as I have told my Twins, that belief in something is the essence that gives that thing truth, and then he may, as my children do, believe in every God, Goddess and Demon Lord, etc.. that ever was created to control the masses!

Its a very innocent belief, like the Tooth Faerie, or Santa, but it is belief, none the less. Patrick can then say "Sure, Im a believer.. which one is he again? God of Sun, or god of war.. or is it the Goddess of Fertility we are talking about..."

Well, it works for me, and it makes for very open and accepting points of view. :)

Felicity.

[Felicity]

P.S I agree with Ruth, talk to his teacher. :)

[Felicity]

P.P.S Im sorry, I keep forgetting to say things, because my 3 children are tearing my house apart.. school holidays!

My eldest Children, 8 year old Edward and Cecilia, are just so close. They still sleep in the same bed, and dont like to be apart. They have their own friends at school but I find that friends of Boy/Girl twins really win out because the Twins mingle with the opposite sex very equally. Our Twins have bought this close relationship to their little brother, 3 year old Oscar, who just feels that it is his birth right to share that same special bond.

It is a lovely bond, and although we certainly do have alot of bickering, the respect and love my children have for each other is just so evident.

[ecky]

wow - serious brainwashing!
it's not ok to exclude anyone - and i'd hope their teacher would be all over that one. everyone can play with everything...
i feel sorry for those two kids. who knows what else they are "learning" at home. ugh!

[Barbara]

I think I'm with the majority here, let the teacher know. It's not about religion it's about exclusivity and the fact that 6 year olds are probably starting to flex their social muscles and can be mean.

[Leandra]

This type of exclusion is really no different from any other type, i.e., you can't play with us because you're wearing the wrong shoes, etc. I think this one just strikes a nerve with you. BUT, I think they need to be dealt with in the same way -- anybody who tells you that you have to conform to their ideals in order to be their friend is not worth having as a friend.

[Elin]

X52 on the exclusion thing. That's how bullies get started. Teacher needs to know what's going on, and perhaps a quick lesson on EMPATHY would be a good idea for the entire class.

[Kelly]

Have Patrick tell them that Jesus would let any child play dominoes who wanted to. Jesus would never bogart the dominoes.

Little nasty zealots!

[MsCellania]

Tell Patrick to tell those dunderheads "Well I believe in the Big Bang Theory and the Genome Project. Look them up on the internet. They are COOL - and WOW - science to back them up!"

[liz]

The exclusion has nothing to do with God and everything to do with the fact that at that age, kids are learning about power. The religion thing was the easiest target. If it hadn't have been that it would have been only X kind of shirt or pants. My first-grade daughter talks about this stuff all the time and I stress that it's not nice to exclude people but that sometimes people just want to play with one person and the reason they give for not wanting to play with you has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the fact that excluding people makes them feel special. Lots of things aren't fair but, in general, the reasons people do them are often pretty silly.

[Kim]

Hey Julia - Just commenting on the part about Packy effing with you. Yes, he is. And so does my five year old son. I think it has less to do with the age and more to do with Patrick's intelligence. Our son seems to be gifted as well, and I find he does things to me that our seven-year-old daughter NEVER has. Lately, we're going through a stage of lying. He looks at you with these huge doe eyes and swears he's telling you the truth. That's the first clue that he's not! Hang in there - I don't foresee Patrick changing, perhaps just getting smarter and having MORE fun with you! =) All the best, Kim