Cubed

I am having second thoughts about the Chicco chairs. Not about whether Caroline is going to break her neck if we continue to use them (with her it is not so much the table crawling that Edward does as the fact that she started standing up in the seat to dance) but whether my expectations for the chairs were in excess of reason. I keep thinking about my nephew who started escaping from his crib at some crazy early age. Fourteen months? Fifteen? My brother and his wife were afraid he would hurt himself so they ditched the crib and moved him into a toddler bed that was about an inch off the ground. Then they spent a horrible month holding the bedroom door shut while my nephew pounded on it and wept because he was no longer in bed and he wanted to come out and play. Eventually they all adjusted and it never occurred to anyone to return the crib. After all, it wasn't the crib's fault that the kid was some kind of mini MacGyver.

A few of you suggested that maybe Caroline and Edward are just past the point where they can be expected to not turn cartwheels on the dinner table. I said no no no no no no no no no and began to weep quietly but I suppose it is possible. The new Regalo seats arrived from Amazon and although they have a shoulder harness Caroline instantly shrugs herself free of it. I think if she really put her mind to it she could be completely out of these new seats too. However (loose shoulder harness notwithstanding) it would be a lot harder for her. These seats hang much lower on the table and they are more cheaply constructed (not surprising as they cost half as much as the Hippo Hanging Chair) which is actually a positive because the floppiness makes it difficult for the twins to get a foothold; imagine using a sagging director's chair to reach the highest shelf in your kitchen. In contrast the Chicco seats were very sturdy and Edward in particular used the frame to support himself while he lunged up and out. 

So I think the new seats will work for a while and now I am waffling on whether my irritation with Chicco was unfounded. Does a seat belt thing need to actually keep a kid seated or is there just a natural life cycles to these things that varies by child? Do you want to know how long Patrick slept in a crib? Until he was three. I found Caroline the other day with both feet and both hands on the crib railing, her face was pressed against the bars and her bottom was a good twelve inches off the mattress - it was a classic uneven bars move and she was very good at it. However, as soon as she gets taller and a little more creative I think she will change position to vault upwards and out she'll go. And when she does it will I call the crib company in a huff? Of course not. On the other hand, the seat has a lap restraint! Shouldn't it restrain? What do you think?

Caroline refused to nap today. She wasn't rude about it; she just went into her crib for an hour to play and then proceeded to jabber more and more loudly until she cried. When I went into get her I was met with a celebration to rival that which greeted the American liberation forces in Paris - it's hard to tell a child to go to sleep when she has been in there for almost ninety minutes and she is looking at you with her hands clasped together in exultant deliverance.

... I was just trying to come up with that classic line delivered by some journalist or (Mencken? no couldn't be) or somebody (I don't remember) who watched as the soldiers marched down the Champs Elysée in 1944 and observed, "Any GI who doesn't get laid tonight is either [I can't remember] or [I can't remember this part either.]" I was trying to get the actual quote and instead I googled my way into a BBC article from April which discussed the fact that de Gaulle wanted the first troops in Paris to be French and the British and Americans insisted they be white. But since the majority of soldiers fighting for France by 1944 were Africans this was a challenge. So they eventually located an armored division in Morocco that was 75% white and they decided this would work since they only had to substitute a quarter of the soldiers ... it is so hideous and shameful and repugnant I don't know what to say. Talk about ruining the liberation for me. I hope to god no one can ever does anything to denigrate the little ships of Dunkirk. I was talking to Patrick about the rescue at Dunkirk one day over dinner and I became so choked up that I could no longer speak. After a pause Patrick asked, "Um, were you THERE?" in a way that let me know I was embarrassing not only myself but the rest of the people at the table; namely him...

So. Caroline. No nap today. I am coming to the conclusion that we need to do something about Caroline's sleep schedule since she is currently doing a credible impression of me, circa college. We have to wake her up in the morning for breakfast otherwise she will sleep until 9:30, easy. She and Edward take a nap (usually) around 1 and we have to wake her up again at 4. This is all good and well but by bedtime she is wide awake and ready to, I dunno, tend bar or something. She will play and talk in her crib until 9 or 10 when she gets fractious. I go up and turn on some music for her and she usually drifts off by eleven. Since she has been in her crib at that point for about four hours... I've been getting letters from Amnesty International. The logical solution would be to curtail the naps but I LIKE naptime. Of course I like bedtime, too, or I would if it was just Edward. Edward is like one of those dolls who eyelids shut when they go past 45°. He still wakes up at intervals all night long but he no longer feels the need to summon me to experience this with him so I don't care. He is up for good at 8:30, takes a solid three hour nap every day and goes down like an oyster at 7:30.

All hail Edward.

Say hi, Edward.

I know I should not say this about my own child but MY GOD he is SO PRETTY.

Edward likes cars. I mean, Edward REALLY likes cars.

"Cah?" he says. "Cah cah cah?" 

He likes to ride in the car. He likes to point to other cars as we drive. He finds cars in books. He fell asleep with two little cars last night, one in each hand.

I would say that he is indulging in a boy's wheeled passion and I was about to resign myself to a childhood of Nascar pillowcases (and me a Formula One fan; does Lewis Hamilton have a line in crib bedding?) when it occurred to me that he also likes crackers. I mean he REALLY likes crackers. He likes to eat crackers and he likes to ask for crackers (Crah-cah? Crah-cah?) and he likes to point out when other people are eating crackers. So I have concluded that it is the one sound he has totally mastered and he wants to draw attention to it in much the same way I spent my time in Central America apologizing to everyone because Lo siento was the only phrase I had really nailed (yes yes I know I owe you more back story and the tale of my first marriage - I will get back to it.)

So cah cah cah. But his sister, CARoline? He calls duh-duh-doh, which I think (I am not sure) means Edward Too. 

I took Patrick to tumbling class again tonight. This was his third time (ever) and he is showing some improvement. I no longer fear he will strangle himself with his own feet when he cartwheels; I now worry that he will decapitate the kid next to him.

Patrick has many gifts. He is funny. He is cute. He is generous. He is loving. He is a shockingly good mimic. He has great small motor skills and if I ever needed anyone to get inside my toaster oven with a tiny screwdriver he's the first person I would call. And, you know, he's a card carrying genius, so that's kinda fun. At times. But! Patrick has not yet mastered the trick of coordinating his limbs and it makes things like, oh, swimming lessons or learning how to ride a bike or sixty minutes of tumbling class... well *I* am enjoying it. The look of bafflement on the face of his twenty year old instructor during stretches was worth the price of admission alone.

I feel guilty about this but the older Patrick gets the less patience I have with him. I was just talking to someone about the fact that I have boundless tolerance for the foibles of infants (you want to wake me up every twenty minutes for five months? fine) and toddler intransigence (Edward got so angry about something today that he managed to move a dining room chair by hitting and kicking the wood floor beneath it - I smiled at him and told him to let me know when he was done.) However the 5s and the 6s and now the 7s? Seem to be heavily laden with mines that explode my patience. Or maybe it's just Patrick. He talks me to death and he argues about everything and he never ever ever does something the first time I ask. Or even the second.

Tonight's dinner. The disputed item: two (2) garbanzo beans. The general rule of thumb being that you (not you, if you had come to dinner you would have been welcome to eschew anything or everything; I mean "you" = "my children") need to try everything even the stuff you have tried before and you know you don't like. A simple regulation.  A reasonable code, I think, and  one designed to encourage familiarity breeding greater familiarity. Right? Well, Patrick must've argued about those two fucking chickpeas for a solid thirty minutes. His points ranged from the fact that no matter how good they are for you the small quantity I was asking him to eat could hardly produce much in the way of benefit to the fact that he already enjoys good health and, frankly, he does not wish to be any different than he is.      

Then, literally mid-sentence, he stopped his garbanzo manifesto.

"How would you multiply three by eight?" he asked.

"How... what?"

"3x8. How do you do it?"

"I just memorized it. Fourth grade. Mrs Barbary's class. Why?"

"What if you forgot it? How would you get to 24?"

So I said I would add 8 to 8 and get 16 and then I would add 8 to 16 which means in my head I would get 14 and carry the 1 and then... 24.

Patrick looked just as baffled as the tumbling teacher.

"What good would that do you?"

So I asked how he would do it.

"Well," he said. "You multiply 3 by 2 and get 6. Then you double that so 3x4, which is 12. Double again 3x8: twenty-four!"

"Ah," I said.

Now as a good parenting story I would get to the end of this little mathematics discussion (I still think you Brits are wrong. Maths. Just sounds weird) and we would discover that Patrick had gotten so engrossed in our conversation that he had absentmindedly finished his dinner while we talked. But the truth of the matter is that as he asked me about the multiplication tables I got a little unnerved so *I* ate his damned garbanzo beans while we talked.

I am almost positive he hypnotized me. You know, like a cobra.

PS Track down that quote for me if you can.

PPS I am signing up for communist playgroup for Caroline and Edward. For those of you who haven't been around for the past five years, communist playgroup is what I call the district sponsored parenting class/pre pre preschool that meets once a week. For an hour you do circle time and play with your kid in the classroom, then you leave your child with the teacher and go meet in a conference room to participate in structured parenting discussions and eat banana bread. I did it with Patrick for several years. Once I liked my fellow parents and really enjoyed it. The other four times I wanted to use the informational handouts to self-inflict paper cuts until I passed out.

However, I think we could all use a morning activity this Fall. Caroline can do every hand gesture to every song (wheels on the bus, itsy-bitsy spider, open shut them... the Cricket's a nursery school natural) and she is dying to perform before an audience larger than me and Edward. And Edward would like a friend with whom he discuss both cars and crackers. As for me... well, how bad can it be really?

So here is the question. I am trying to decide whether I should sign up for the regular 18 months to 30 months class or the multiples class. In the latter the kids would range in age from birth to five and they would all be twins or triplets or heavenstobetsy. The parenting topics are supposedly twin+ specific.

My inclination is to go with the normal one, largely because I do not feel like a parent of twins. Is that weird? I feel like a fraud when I see stuff about twin parenting or multiples challenges. I have no idea why. But maybe there are things coming up in development that I could really use some twin specific guidance on? I think Caroline and Edward might have more fun if it is just toddlers but I am willing to accept opinions on the subject.

Comments

[Katie]

Easier said that done, Chris. My rule with my six year old is that when I tell him to do something, it is not open to debate. "When Mom asks you do do something (or tells you not to), YOU DO IT (or don't do it)!" I have repeated this mantra thousands of times since, oh, age 3 and still, in moments of fatigue, weakness, absentmindedness, ineffective parenting (pick your word), I end up in debates over why it is important for only adults to administer medicine even if the medicine is flavored like watermelon and looks like candy. And eventually I remember that, oh yes, why don't I just revert to my age-old rule. But six year-olds (and seven year olds, I take it) are wiley creatures. Somehow they lure you into debates you didn't intend to have. Oh dear. I guess I'm coddling mine, too.

[anon]

I was spent something like 6 hours at the table refusing to eat scrambled eggs with cheese in them -- what a pointless exercise in willfulness for both me and my mother. I reveled in my own rectitude and basked in my own perseverance of truth and justice and not eating foods that touched or had plural ingredients. My advice -- figure out if this is really about manners rather than about health and make the rules reflect the real issue and values. I was, in fact, a brat at times and I probably would not have eaten things to be respectful or polite, but that seems to me to be the real issue raised by my behavior. Patrick should learn to be polite when he declines food; he should learn that there are circumstances under which we take a bite to make someone feel better; he should learn that being righteous can be lonely and that arrogance is unbecoming. At least, that last lesson is the one I wish I had learned a little earlier.

[Chris]

Go with the multiples class. I find that I have unforseen logistical challenges all the way that I am always ill prepared for (Ben and Alya will be 3 in November). I always wish I had other twin moms around. I have one. She is doesn't do any of the ridiculous competitive crazy stuff many of my singleton mom friends do....you know - everyone loves to discuss their kids and brag on their kids. I am talking about stalker moms who have to mimick and copy and outdo everything. I mean is it really necessary to compare kids turd sizes? I prefer to either discuss 1) adult topics with other adults or 2) get feedback on what to do about gym class in the Fall since it requires a parent per kid and I am at a disadvantage since Adam must go to work so that we have a house to live in and food to eat.

I don't know....some women seem to naturally feel at a disadvantage when they have 1 kid and you (and I do mean *you*) have twins. Never have figured out why that threatens some people's sense of confidence. It is weird. I am all for the "can't we all just get along" theory.

[Singleton Mom]

All moms have logistical challenges, Chris. Why do you need another "twin mom" and not just someone who could help out? And what about moms of many children who just don't happen to be "multiples?" The reason some moms feel at a disadvantage is that some other moms want to make themselves feel superior because they had more than one baby at a time.

[Karen]

Thanks for the laughs over chickpeas. I love them. It would never occur to me to serve them to my children in whole form. I make hummus and they like that - except on Sunday I made it and my 7 year old refused to eat it.

We have a tasting rule that applies to everyone over age 6. If I made it for dinner (or dad did) they must taste it, even if it's a microgram serving. I love the commenter that said if "yuck" is uttered the serving size goes up - totally going to implement that one!

Back to Sunday - my lovely 7 year old refused to eat the main protein, so I then served her my special purchase for the evening - blue cheese! HEHEHEHE. She didn't eat much of that, either, but she did taste it. Twice.

Here's one idea about why Patrick might be so frustrating at the moment - perhaps his verbal acuity and reading smarts has fooled you into thinking he's not actually 7? I'm often lulled into forgetting that I have a 7 and 9 year old because they are ready for law school today. It's good to remember that most smart kids' emotional maturity is NOT as developed as their vocabulary.

[mothergoose]

Gotta chime in- after working for years with kids with severe behavior problems, I find it best to remember that you cannot MAKE another human being do ANYTHING, certainly not eat 2 garbanzo beans. Sure, you could hold him down and force them down his throat, but what would be the point?

Instead, if it is important enough, find a way to make it worth his while to do what is asked. If you do this thing I want you to do, you can do this other thing you want to do. Someone else mentioned giving choices, which would be great for Patrick, who seems to like to be in control (what 7 year old doesn't?). Let him pick how much he needs to eat before he gets (insert what he likes: watch tv, dessert, etc.). If he still doesn't do what is asked, no argument, he just doesn't get to do what he wants.

I also love the idea that if he doesn't like what you've made, he can make himself something else (cereal, PB&J, whatever). You might want to tell him he needs to try one bite, or even take a lick, before he is allowed to make his own meal. If he is hungry, he will eat. Make sure he gets a daily vitamin if you are concerned.

Anytime you feel like you are getting frustrated by lack of compliance, let go of trying to control the situation, and figure out a way to make it worth his while instead.

[victoria]

I love your way with language.

"Since she has been in her crib at that point for about four hours... I've been getting letters from Amnesty International."

"[Edward] is up for good at 8:30, takes a solid three hour nap every day and goes down like an oyster at 7:30."

Goes down like an oyster? Calls from Amnesty International? Does this stuff just COME to you?

And yes, I am still waiting for the story of exciting international relations and adultery, with you in a trenchcoat and Ingrid Bergman hair a la Casablanca.

[Carrie]

I don't have twins so I don't know if my opinion counts for much. I would go for the more age specific class. We've been doing a co-op preschool for the past year and I've found it difficult to deal with a wide range of ages. I am sort of a control freak, though.

[tgsdmom]

PS, so "Mathematics are interesting subjects" or "Mathematics is an interesting subject"? (feel free to replace interesting by boring if you need to.) I never use Math[ematic[s]] as a plural noun. I think it is just a noun ending with 's'. Hence, I have no problem with 'Math'.

[Deanna]

Could you post a link to that story about the French soldiers? It sounds really interesting and I'm WAAAAAY too lazy to Google it. Thanks!

[Julia]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/liberation-of-paris-the-hidden-truth-434403.html

Huh. I said it was April and in fact it was January 2007. Close enough.

[Carla Hinkle]

Umm, Chris, you clearly do not have children. Because the "I am the parent and you will do what I say and you will not argue with me" is not, just not, the end of the line. Unless you plan to be punishing (certain) children, who seem to live to argue, 24-7. The I-will-not-engage-with-you rule is better, but as another commenter noticed, it takes extreme discipline to enforce in oneself. I am not always capable of such self discpline.

I do think that fights over food -- even to just take 1 bite -- aren't that productive. If the kid will take a bite, even if it takes some coaching, then great. If it turns into a 40 minute argument, meh. I don't feel like any of us gained anything from that. But that's JMO, YMMV, etc etc etc.

(And the "it's good you had some more children" comment is a bit unkind, don't you think? This blog was nothing for years but an expression of Julia's desire to have more children.)

[AnnaN]

Deanna - here is where I found my information (if this is what you were requesting)

http://books.google.com/books?id=QYz17_4VLbUC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=%22ANY+GI+WHO+DOESN'T+GET+%22&source=bl&ots=A3429S5dCi&sig=0ml3_c2V1MGVD4UhlQ4gTh9SeG4&hl=en&ei=M9CBSrHcBomKswOgu9j7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=%22ANY%20GI%20WHO%20DOESN'T%20GET%20%22&f=false

[AnnaN]

Oh dear, I hope I didn't break the comments with that...

[Carrie (in MN)]

Yeah, I hate to tell you but my challenging one is my oldest, singleton boy. He's been driving me crazy with the arguing since he could talk (my mantra: he's going to be a fantastic adult....if I don't kill him first). He's now 13 and the arguing now has a lovely adolescent eyeball-rolling twist. My twins, now 9? Oh, occasionally one of them puts up an argument, but they are relative lightweights.

There are twins issues that are unique to twins or to two siblings bornveryclosetogether, despite what singleton mom says above. For example, there is the whole trapping one toddler with one's knees whilst lifting the other into his/her car seat maneuver. I once had one get away during that maneuver and run into the parking lot in front of a (fortunately aware) car. When they get older there are the same or separate classrooms questions and the playdate politics (three kids does not a happy playdate make).

However, those are mostly logistics questions and I'd bet you'd not get a lot of new knowledge out of it and would lose the socializing aspect for the kids.

[Carrie (in MN)]

Forgot to conclude...therefore I'd lean towards the age-appropriate playgroup.

[Elin]

A little algebra for you:

Julia is so pretty, and Edward looks just like Julia; therefore, Edward IS SO PRETTY! :)

[Cori]

I have to respectfully disagree some previous commenters who seem to feel that you do Patrick a disservice by not taking a more disciplinarian approach to parenting. I've been giving this matter a great deal of thought lately, especially since reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. I feel like the more strict disciplinarian ("Children are to be seen and not heard!") approach was more suited to previous generations when finding a "good job" when they reached adulthood meant something involving an assembly line or the local mill.

I don't really know you, but you seem to be taking a different approach to child-rearing. One that will no doubt result in Patrick growing up to be something more like a scientist, a professor or perhaps an attorney. It really isn't the worst thing in the world for a child to look at an authority figure and think, "I am that person's equal." Perhaps the price of raising a successful adult in this age is that they might be a bit more difficult to manage as a child. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for good manners and teaching kids to treat people with respect.

[Courtney]

I LOVE your writing, you constantly crack me up! Let's see if I can touch all subjects.
Naps....I would really reccomend them going to nap earlier than they do. My 22 month old gets up at 630amish if I work, 8amish if I"m off and naps between 11a-1pm. Then she's ready for bed between 8-9pm. Of course this varies.
Arguing...wait until he's 12. I yelled at my 12 1/2 year old daughter in Home Depot today to stop arguing with me. Her reply? "I"m not arguing with you". OH really??? Hmmm coulda fooled me!!!
Chairs....my 22 month old is still in a highchair so no help there. However I did like the idea of the little table & chairs, but if I remember correctly your reason for getting the hanging chairs was so you could have easier access to help them. And in all honesty once you let them sit at the little table there is NO going back. This also changes "family" dinner time. What about just booster seats that strap into the chairs? That will be my next step.
Picky Eaters.....no help there. My kids are BOTH picky eaters as well as I am.
Keep up the good work, ignore other posters who seem to think you "allow" Patrick to argue with you. "Probably the best thing that could've happened to him is your having more children, because your constant doting during his preschool years seems to have given him the opinion that he is your equal... or maybe your superior. And sometimes it comes across in your posts that maybe you think so, too." Seriously??? Has this poster EVER had children????

[Laura]

As always I love, love, love you entries! And I have to add that I strongly agree with Cori. As a former high school English teacher my favorite unit was Transcendentalism, mainly because we could focus on why it is so gosh darned important to question authority. As aggravating as it is in your own child, a healthy dose of this attitude will serve him well in life – you “just” have to teach him how to walk the fine line between healthy questioning/debate and knowing when it’s best to listen to the wisdom of your elders (and when you find that answer please, oh please, pass it on to the rest of us). Garbanzo beans probably fall into the not really worth it category. And I know the beans are symbolic of a larger issue - but as far as introducing new foods, his tastes will branch out eventually (or not, which isn't really that horrible in the grand scheme of things). As long as he's healthy, a lack of vegetable (legume?) variety won't kill him. Keep offering new things, someday maybe they'll take hold (or not). I'd just enjoy the hypnosis and upper level math theory.

With only a little singleton of my own I have no basis to recommend a toddler vs. multiples class. However, I sure would peek into the multiples group and see if any of the other kiddos have ever done a simultaneous interpretative frog dance…

[Emme Bea]

I totally don't have time to read the comments, so I'm so sorry if I'm repeating what has come before me.

But, crib escaping? The mutiny cannot stand. For heavens sake, there's no reason NOT to keep a kid in there as long as possible! (Disclaimer, just my opinion, everyone's entitled to one, if your's is different it is every bit as valid and well founded, yada yada yada.) So, how do I ensure kid stays put? Sleep Sack. She won't be able to split her legs far enough for a good climb over. (But then she is a cricket, so she may eschew the climb and jump right out.) So, then go to plan b and get a crib tent. It zips up on the outside and she can't climb out.

Ummm... Naps. Wake her up after two hours. If she'll even take one.

What else, what else? Oh, you are a mother of twins. You are not a fraud. Join the twin group. Learn zone defense strategies and tips and shit like that. Have fun! THEN, if that doesn't make your skirt fly up, go to the singleton age appropriate one. Well, that's what I'd do. Whatever you do will be fodder for an excellent post or three and I can't wait to read about it!

I love your children and would eat them up with all kinds of spoons if left alone with them!

[Penny]

If I would have stopped at two children I may feel like "Chris". But since I decided I just had to have another, I was blessed with an arguer. She is now 15 and she was not a doted on first child so that blows that theory out of the water. She just happens to have that personality. We don't condone disrespect and she does follow the rules, she just questions and debates. She is also a VERY picky eater. I have never forced trying things. I have always had the rule, "This is dinner". If someone was opposed to it they were welcome to get a bowl of cereal. It is the rule I grew up with also. It may not be the best rule in the world, but it works. No one ever starved and it saved a lot of tears at the table. We really are there to eat a meal and spend time together as a family. Cereal works too. My two oldest will eat most anything. Middle daughter hates fish, so I make sure there is salad, a vegetable and some fruit and bread along with the fish and she won't starve. Raising children is challenging. Each child is different as we who have more than one child know all too well. The same rules may not work exactly for each child. We all do our best and need to support each other. Mine are past the age of high chairs and preschool, but I do remember the challenges. I know that it does get easier in some ways and much more challenging in others! Dating and High School! Julia, you are doing a wonderful job raising wonderful children!! I love reading about your daily life and seeing pictures of the beautiful children, and yes, Edward is a beautiful child. As are his sister and brother. Keep those posts coming. It makes my day to see a new one!

[Kathleen]

I have a bright non-stop talker too and by the time he was seven he had already learned hard lessons about not talking at mommy non-stop. Your patience with your bright talker puts me to shame.

I think Patrick will survive a less saintly mother.

[Hetty Fauxvert]

Last question first: As a mother of toddler twins myself, I say go for the multiples class, because who knows? You might learn something. Whereas you have already done the other class five times. Also, you might learn how in the world to keep one aggressive toddler twin from constantly beaning his/her brother/sister the instant you step out of the room. If you find out, please let me know, 'k? I've been quizzing every authority I can find on the twin aggression issue (hah! guess what's going on in OUR house these days, eh?) but I'm not coming up with good answers yet.

[peeks]

But but it has to be maths - it is mathematicS not mathematic. I cannot bear to think of math, that poor little one sum all on its own.

Seats which attach to tables mean that escapees are routed onto the table, if you have a normal high chair they will just get down and wander off, or be imprisoned for the duration of the meal. Haven't you got ikea? - get a couple of antilops if poss.

[Marsha]

I think other commenters have nicely established that Patrick would be Patrick regardless of his status as a sib. I have a slightly older model of Patrick myself (and a younger daughter) and my husband and I found ourselves rather early on having discussions about how to 1) not stifle his intellectual growth and 2) encourage questioning and logical thinking while 3) not making ourselves crazy. By now we're pretty good at answering the questions and comments for so long and then issuing the "we're nearing the end of exploration on this" warning after which we expect that the thing for which we asked will be done. We also have "this is a difficult subject even for grown-ups with lots more experience and wisdom than you" (for we want him to know that smarts aren't terribly useful without these other things) and "this is not an appropriate topic for children to discuss with adults but we can tell you that..." and finally "you're coming up to the limit of what's acceptable in this discussion" (usually brought out when he's approaching that point where he's beginning to believe he's an adult with adult-like authority in the household). Lately I've been developing a line that goes "thank you for sharing this with me - I too think it's funny/sad/scary/whatever. You should know that this is good to share between us but not something that you should talk about with Grammy/Mother Anne/your teacher/your friends' parents/etc.". We'll see how this shakes out.

And food? We ask that everything on the table be tried (a bite is good) after which one may have seconds of preferred items. In this way our kids - no lie - have come to cheer the appearance of kale and okra. And lentil soup. And I - because I follow the rule too - have learned that barbecue ribs actually won't make me hurl.

[jen]

I don't think it's ever wrong to contact a company and offer feedback. While it may be asking too much of a 3-pt restraint to contain active children like the twinks, I still think you were right to contact the company. I don't like how they brushed you off. Why not listen politely, explain that the design of these seats and then offer to send you a little something for your trouble, like a $10 gift card to Target or something?

I don't think you actually asked for our feedback regarding Patrick, and so I hope I'm not out of line... With a brain like his, I wonder if he sees a nightly dinner struggle as an engaging debate and deductive reasoning session? He might even think that you enjoy these little mental jousts?

Before my twins were born - who have colds and just woke up waaaaaaay too early from their nap, and so I must run - I was a high school math teacher. Maybe Patrick needs a logical argument outlet other than dinner? Here are a couple of quick thoughts I had that he might be interested in.

http://www.amazon.com/Patty-Paper-Geometry-Michael-Serra/dp/1559530723

I used this in my classroom and liked it.

and...

http://www.amazon.com/Cleverly-Crafty-Five-Minute-Mysteries-Weber/dp/076243001X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250084979&sr=8-1

this looks different from what I used, but I've run out of time this morning and all my classroom stuff is in storage at my mother's so I'll offer up this one and let you take if from there if you are interested.

[Slim]

"Mathematics is a plural noun and so it should be shortened to Maths. In the same way that Telephones would be shortened to phones.

To shorten it to phone, would change it to a singular noun and change the meaning."

Balderdash. When one shortens "telephones," one is shortening by lopping off the front. When one shortens "mathematics," one is cutting off the end, including the "s."

Unless people are going to start talking about being "econs majors," I don't want to hear how very shockingly wrong and illogical it is to say "math."

Also, I do not insist that my children try food that I have put on their plates, because I have no way of knowing how objectionable they find it. I would not want them to insist that I have to take a bite of Airheads.

And I have been known to tell children, "I explained why so that you would know, not so that you could argue with me about my logic. It's a final decision; do you still want to talk about it?"

[Kim]

I found once my older daughter was mobile - crawling at 5 mo., walking at 10 mo. - all bets were off. Any attempt at restraint was laughed at by her. So I guess I never had any illusions that the restraints were more than just a guideline. It told her she was supposed to sit, but certainly didn't ensure compliance. I had no illusions by the time the second came along, but lo and behold, she was not nearly as mobile or mischeivous. Any way, supervision was key and some tolerance of bruises and crying. I found she learned quickly what worked and what didn't as far as getting hurt or not. But I tell you, now that they are 7 and 9, it sure is nice to be able to eat without a child crawling all over me. Guess you just do what you gotta do. Good luck.

Definately go with the toddler class. I think you've got the twins thing down.

[Brenda]

My twin brother, Doug... use to call himself.. Dougie and me.. Guggie. Brenda just wasn't in his vocabulary yet. :-)

[Julia]

Chairs: i think the seats should have a 5 point harness, and if not, you should be able to tighten the belt until it holds the child in. Seat with belt means that you don't want the child to get out. So the belt should work.

My mother thought it would be a great idea to put my one year old son in a wooden high chair with no belt of any kind, and she said he needed to "learn to sit and not get up". I told her that if she wanted that fight she was in charge of meals the whole time we were visiting and within three days she had produced a scarf which she doubleknotted around his stomach and tied to the chair during mealtimes.

I do not enjoy arguing about stupid things like sitting when there are so many other things to argue about (Don't put your mouth on the electrical outlet! Ever!)

[shriek house]

I don't know what to tell you about the chairs... perhaps tie the twinks' shoelaces together?

And I do know exactly what you mean about an oldening child's capacity to annoy and enrage. Every DAY I have to remind myself not to get drawn into mobius-type arguments with my clever but pushy 6 year old. And every day I get suckerized anyway.

Courage! (You know, coo-rahhhj. Fronch.)

[Alison]

As a card carrying Brit living in the States I agree with you on the Maths thing. Now the word just sounds weird to me, but most of the other purely English words I grew up with have stayed with me (nappies for diapers etc) QED, Maths must be wrong.

[tgsdmom]

OK. I've had enough of that Math/Maths business. I am willing to be tolerant of people saying Maths (even though it is wrong), as long as they do not correct me for saying Math.

Now, 'Mathematics' is NOT a plural noun. For example: "Mathematics IS a subject" and not "Mathematics ARE subjects". Do you also abbreviate Linguistics to Lings?

For an extensive explanation of this controversy see http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/03/maths.html

[jeni w]

My kids are older, 9 and 7, and i have no idea what kind of chairs you are talking about, how is it different than a high chair?? I used a high chair until they were too big/trying to get out and then a soft booster seat (kooshie booster I think was the name) which did not have restraints of any kind, I guess I am not sure what these seats are the attach to the table...if they are in just plain booster seats will they not stay at the table to eat??? it's hard to restrain a kid that wants to get out. My son got out of the crib at 18 months, went to a bed on the floor no problem.

[Laura]

I also have a very bright elementary schooler, aged 8. The questioning has been constant since she could talk. (One of her first words was "That?" a short form of "What's that?" lilted at every thing all the time.) We went along with that one because her vocabulary grew quickly. Then from two to four it was what we called "the TV questions." Absolutely maddening to watch any TV show/video/etc. with her because the questions were so non-stop that we couldn't hear any of the show. For that, we set a limit: Five questions per show, so make them good ones. Now she questions everything, including long-standing rules, things she overhears in adult conversations, etc. Luckily, she loves figures of speech and likes to play a game where I give her some and she tries to figure out the meaning, and how the figure of speech evolved. So we taught her "beating a dead horse." Now we use that phrase to let her know when a topic — whether a rule or just a very persistent line of questioning about any random thing — is completely closed. It seems to work pretty well — for now.

[Penny]

Weighing in with our food 'strategy'.

The rules: (1) we make your plate, (2) you never have to eat anything, (3) no picking apart your food to select special parts for eating, and (4) no refills until you eat "most" of your plate.

(3) - in particular, means.... Fried rice that has ham? You cannot selectively go through and pick out the ham. You might go for spoonfuls that include the ham, but no "digging" through to get out the gem parts. Or if there're peas in the fried rice and you despise peas? Same goes... don't toss the peas aside as you go.

Truth is... if the child REALLY hates peas, I'd probably not put much (or any) in next batch of fried rice I make, and but I might occasionally stick some in again some day.

Oh - and you have to eat at the table (no wandering through the house with nibbles.) And you cannot play with your food.

Side note. Can I just say that I think it's cute when kids play with their food? But I just don't want to have to clean the mess the seems to result. On a 5x-a-day basis!

So we never have fights about "you must eat X". But alas, we still have fights, usually about them insisting they're still eating and refusing to get down from the table even though their antics can cause minor explosions any minute.

So - the garbanzo beans? I'd still put it on my child's plate(maybe just 2 or 4, like you). And almost always, I have to throw that out. But I find that if it's sitting on her plate, she (like you, apparently) abasent-mindedly eats it accidentally sometimes. My theory is that she might like it some day, and she might like to try it some day, and that's more likely to happen if it happens to sit on her plate than if I never put any there.

But so far, I am fairly adamant about not forcing her to eat (or try) anything. And the oldest is almost 6.5 now, so maybe that means I will not change my strategy on this front. Unlike in other aspects of our lives.

[Elin]

PS, been lurking in the comments about the "maths" debate. I just HAVE to jump back in. "Mathematics" and "maths" are both plural forms of the noun, "math" according to Merriam-Webster.

"Maths" is the usual British form of the plural "math", while "mathematics" is the American form. Although a plural noun, "mathematics" is used in singular form in sentence construction.

Just sayin'.

[Cookie]

I vote for the toddler class, they'll have more fun if it is age-specific. I have Nick in a little gym class once a week, and it is age-specific, and he does great in it. When I tried Gabe in a multi-age class as a toddler, it didn't go well because there weren't many children for him to relate too.

As for the chairs, I used a high chair against a wall until my Gabe got too big (and rowdy) for it. He is now in a booster seat that straps to a chair. Nick is still in a high chair at 17-months.

[A]

Well, you probably would not want it any longer, but I found the name of my contact at Chicco who was super helpful and super solicitous about the fact that there was something in the material of the travel system that was sending us to the pediatrician's office over and over with awful skin rashes.

Ginny Gross, Customer Service Manager

Chicco USA, Inc.

1835 Freedom Road

Lancaster, PA 17601

1-877-424-4226

ginnyg@chiccousa.com

Maybe it's a little much to think that they owe you new chairs b/c your kids can climb out...but I don't know. Was it really their fault that my daughter was allergic to the material in their travel system? That's kind of the whole reason for product testing and safety ratings. I would at least contact Ginny so they can record it as a potential safety hazard and think about redesigning their safety harnesses. It's a continuous improvement thing and based on my experience with Ginny, I'd think they'd give you a Chicco credit or something. I would be really surprised if it turned out she was the one you talked to already and was so horrible!

[kathleen999]

go for the twins class. If you haven't experienced any twin issues yet, you will. Can't hurt, and it's fun to get together with other parents of multiples because there are things only multiples parents understand.

[AJ]

Oh wow that previous comment about your doting has really pissed me off. I think its so great when other parents have the only right answers for raising children.

Patrick is the way he is because he is 7 probably and because he's naturally more tuned to arguments of logic. Letting him embrace this gift and not just "OBEY!" will probably help him much later in life. It just sucks now. Do whatever it is you have to do Julia and tell the other parenting expert Nazi losers to shut-up.

: )

I vote for the toddler class too, a multiples class seems boring. Caroline and Edward are so different they don't seem like twins. The just happen to be born together... I wonder what they will think when they grow up??

[AJ]

And to add...

My mother made me learn early there is a big difference between being smart and being wise. And it made a huge difference to me and how I respected my mother wisdom, even though I still questioned everything else incessantly.

[julie]

My favorite rule for kid's dinnertime is: it's the parent's job to put a balanced meal on the table, and it's the child's job to decide whether or not to eat it. (It's from Child of Mine: feeding with love and good sense by Ellyn Satter.)

I can seriously empathize about feeling like your tolerance for one child is lower than another. I have a seven and a two and it seems like I am constantly angry at the older one about something. I feel awful, though, because the younger one really doesn't do anything that irritates me very often (just wait..I know), so his brother feels as though he is the only one who ever gets in trouble. I keep telling him this will change, but it must be tough in the meantime.

[Pam L]

I agree on the "normal" one, not the multiples one. I think that would a) be too specialized and b) be the wrong thing age-wise going from birth to 5 years.

Also I like the "In the latter the kids would range in age from birth to five and they would all be twins or triplets or heavenstobetsy." quote.

[haus]

My daughter just celebrated her 14-mo anniversary of life by learning to climb out of the grocery cart seat. And yes, she was strapped in.

I turned around from produce and Ta Da! There she was! Trying to stand up straight and doing a pretty good job of it.

As if Kroger wasn't terrifying enough already.

Oh, and my boy-o, who is now 4, celebrated his 2nd birthday by climbing out of his crib. Silently, too. We heard nothing until his door opened and he walked out, looking all pleased with himself.

These things, they have expiration dates - we just don't know what they'll be when we buy them.

[Flicka]

I have to chuckle...My son climbed out of his crib at nine months. We had to buy a crib tent that we dubbed "Alcababytraz" to keep him in. If I have my way, he'll be in that thing until he's five!

[e]

You should have agreed that two was too few and offered to bump Patrick's share of chick peas up to a sensible portion to give him a fair chance of assessing his dis/like of them; or he could eat the two he had. I reckon the 2 would have gone quite quickly, no?