Progress

Our first instinct was to deal with the unspeakable basement flooding ourselves but we quickly realized that this was impractical, inefficient and, you know, gross. So we called our insurance company and - after they checked to make sure that we were indeed covered for acts of ohmygod - we filed a claim. Having never filed a homeowners' claim before we were not sure what to expect and we were pleasantly surprised when they dispatched a clean-up team the same day we called them. We beamed as they ripped up half of our carpet, hauled away the nasty bits, and then scrubbed everything in sight. 

That was four weeks ago and nothing has happened since. We have half a carpet and the rest of the floor is concrete studded with carpet tacks. It is like the suburban version of a land mine field. Since I had just five minutes ago gotten to the point where I could let Caroline and Edward play unattended down there for short periods of time I am feeling cheated. Now they go down to play and I have to go too; a catcher in the rye who keeps snatching them away from the cliff edge of tiny nails. I would like my basement back and I would like to be able to abandon the kids down there without fear of perforation.

We did have a guy come out to measure things and I got all excited and I spent an entire preschool day hauling things into the storage room in anticipation of new carpet only to have the children spend fourteen seconds tossing it all back out again and still no new carpet.

I think the weak link here is Steve. Like most couples, Steve and I have our areas of domestic responsibility. I cook; he takes out the trash. I schedule dental appointments; he climbs on the icy roof and shoots scalding water at the snow covered satellite dish. I buy the kind of toothpaste Patrick likes and Steve handles all basement repair scheduling; unless he gets ridiculously busy with work in which case I still buy the toothpaste and no one schedules anything.

Not that I am complaining. I'm not. We had one unbelievably bad horrible scary year (Steve earned... nothing in 2009. at all. zero dollars. we lived on savings, credit, my HA HA HA blog earnings and gift cards that my mother sent

you know I have been thinking about the lucky/unlucky thing and there is something to be said for a positive perspective. Just the other day I was contemplating how much worse things could have been for us when everything went so abruptly wrong if it were not for my out of control anxiety. Like: oh how fortunate that I didn't do anything sooner about how crazy I was. I was wondering why I didn't see someone earlier because in retrospect I was a tightly wound recluse and then I saw the upside. Seriously, for years and years I have been so worried about financial ruin and living under a bridge that I insisted on what Steve considered to be stringent - whackaloon - economies. As a result of my previosuly unsubstantiated now justified belief that we were one failed potato crop away from starvation; when the Hindenburg of our monetary outlook blew up we were debt free (except the mortgage) with first (cash) second (investments) and third (retirement accounts) tier backup plans in place. 

So on the minus side I have a child who believes they are at risk for abduction if they are not in physical contact with me in public and on the plus side we were able to ride out a depr/rec/ession without losing our house.

That's positive thinking, right there. Little Mrs Sunnysides.

Although you know what? For the first time, um, ever I actually missed a monthly payment. I don't remember if it was the gas bill or the phone or what but we got a late payment notice in the mail and it was as if the Eiffel Tower had suddenly sprouted in our living room. The new, citalopramed, calmer me received a bill, looked at it, and said, "Oh I'll just pay this later" and then forgot about it. This has literally never happened before. Ever.

I confessed this dreadful side effect to my childhood best friend who burst out laughing and said that she was pretty sure there were ways to manage anxiety without damaging your credit score and had I considered automatic bill paying? I hadn't.

Good heavens. Where on earth was I? I just had to scroll up.

Right. Steve is busy working and that is a good thing but he is in Florida for meetings right now and the nails on the floor aren't going anywhere and I don't even know the name of the contractor so I can call and deal with it myself.

Meanwhile the friend of a friend accidentally backed into our car while leaving a birthday party that Patrick was attending so we are just starting our second insurance claim process and it seems to be going equally slowly. Two for two.

+

In a moment of misplaced frustration many years ago I wrote something I regretted more or less instantly. I had miscarried or was miscarrying or might have been about to miscarry and I snapped that I didn't find anything remotely comforting about blog comments that assured me that they, too, had worried or suffered or struggled and yet their baby was upstairs right that minute sleeping peacefully in a ladybug onesie.

Not only was this not true - I actually did take a great deal of comfort from these comments - it was so ungracious and petty that I was really ashamed of myself and ladybug onesie has stuck with me as a phrase that epitomizes the bitter and peevish parts of trying and failing to have children.

Don't get me wrong. If my hcg failed to double properly, I miscarried. If the embryo was a few days too small, I miscarried. If there was no heartbeat in the first ultrasound, I miscarried. None of the stories of hope and optimism that were offered ever applied to me. But hope itself and optimism in general? That did. 

Patrick picked out the dress. The ladybug motif was an accident. But I smiled as I went through the pictures I had taken and I realized, hey, I tried for nine years to have the family I wanted. I miscarried ten times and terminated once when the baby could not live. I did IVF three times, a FET, and had sex more or less every day for a decade. I spent thirteen weeks on the couch, many nights in the hospital, and I got so adept at giving myself shots that I have a preferred method depending upon whether I am injecting my ass or my stomach. It was hard. I cried, I got angry, I alienated people and I once bit my husband on the leg.

I realized a year ago that even if it had never worked, even if we had never had children at all it would have been fine. Really. We would have felt sad and we would have picked ourselves up and done something different. Sailed around the world. Gone to New Zealand. Written a sketch comedy. 

I think we have a happy ending but I acknowledge - now in a way that I just could not see before - that it was not the only happy ending available to us.

That said: we have three children and one of them wears ladybugs.

We are so very very lucky.

PS I completely distracted myself but I had a question for you and I am really interested in your thoughts.

Let's say you have a friend. A good friend who has always been there for you. Then say this friend does something pretty dreadful, but not to you. Let's say he cheats on his wife and abandons his three small children in order to follow his new girlfriend to her freshman year of college. Or he willfully defrauds an orphanage. He left a box full of puppies on the side of the road. Something that most people would agree was beyond the pale. Can you, should you, continue the friendship? 

Comments

[AR]

I hate to be a relativist, but isn't "beyond the pale" all relative? I would find it very hard to remain friends with the family abandoner, but the puppy leaver? I could see myself forgiving (after atonement, sure, but forgiving nonetheless).

But maybe you are completely opposite, as you didn't like his wife or children in the first place, and the puppies are the legacy dogs of the dog you loved in your childhood and do you see what I mean? It's all relative.

The defrauding an orphanage thing I'm sure we can all agree is beyond the pale, however. If your friend did that, the friendship is over.

[Kristi]

I am so confused at what happened there. I feel like I need to go back and read it twice? Or three times?

But Caroline looks adorable in lady bugs. Find the contractors name and get going with it. Good luck with the car. And and and... :) I really love when you post and I see you in my Google Reader!

As for the last bit...

I've had parents and friends do crappy things. Holding grudges and hating people takes quite a bit of energy. Are they sad? Are they sorry? Did they ask for your forgivness? (Did they need to?)

I have forgiven more of my friends/parents for the crappy things they have done. In some cases I told them off and generally ignored them for a year or so to make a point but life goes on.

People do crappy things.

[kate]

I think probably not, in my case, unless I could somehow excuse the really bad act.

[Amy]

I love the ladybug dress. Caroline, as always, is adorable.

As for the friend, that's a tough one. I wouldn't end the friendship completely, but I would distance myself. Let them know you don't approve of their behavior and can't be friendly, but you're still there if they turn themselves around.

[carosgram]

What are friends for if they don't stay when you f**k up? Everybody messes up sometime, we are human beings. And what is unforgivable to one person is a misdemeanor to another. It is when we are confused, desperate, and outright wrong that we need our friends most. Who else will tell us the truth? Who else will prove that we are worthy of unconditional love? Who else will prove that nothing is unforgivable, even if very hard to forget? I would stay and try being the friend I would want to have when I screw up.

[Shawna]

Hm. I think that even if I thought to myself that the dreadful thing hadn't been to me and I resolved to remain friends, I would probably end up drifting away from this person. Depending on what they had done and how unexpected it was, chances are good that they wouldn't be the same person in my eyes.

[NetWriterM]

I want that dress! Where did you find it?

It would look great on my girl.

M

[Robyn]

How does the friend defend his/her actions?

[Debbie]

"I think we had a happy ending but I acknowledge - now in a way that I just could not see before - that it was not the only happy ending available to us."

Thank you for this. It's just what I needed to read as I stew over the fact that my ass-hat future BIL who, despite knowing of our years of MC & IF, keeps asking "so how many more are you going to have? 4? 5?" My own 5mo IVF miracle is sleeping in the next room and you've reminded me to focus on that joy instead of constantly/already worrying about how/whether I will ever produce the sibling I so want him to have.

[Shawna]

I want to add:

... unless perhaps they'd forgiven me for a time period when I'd been a complete asshole to undeserving boys (see: my early-to-mid twenties). Then maybe I'd just look at it partly as my turn to be there for them.

It would seriously have to strongly depend on what they'd done.

[Heather]

Love the dress. And I know what you mean about those comments when you are feeling low. They help, but you still don't take them quite right. Not sure what I would do about the friend. I think it would depend if I knew what was going on in their mind. I never really know until I'm in that situation. I have a good friend who recently let me know in email and texting that her and her husband (who we are friends with too) are separating and she is moving out. I really want to know what happened as it's very surprising, but I haven't asked. I figured he must have done something awful, but then it did hit me yesterday....maybe she did. For all I know she could be moving out because she's in love with someone else. I don't think it's likely, but it's always possible. I'm really really curious to find out.

[Chris in NY]

Re ending a friendship- I think there are conditions related to the eggregious behavior that would tip the scale one way or the other. Was is a one time (or short term aberration) or is it ongoing bad conduct. One time or short term, I say, "Let she who is without sin cast the first stone." YOu love people, and sometimes they do rotten things that they then rationalize. We're human and we are flawed. If it is ongoing, then that is where it gets tricky. I think I would want to distance myself from this person. First, because everytime I saw or interacted with this person, that is ALL I would be thinking about. And what kind of relationship is that. Second, I would always be waiting for him/her to pull the same kind of d*** move on me. So redux re the relationship. The question is whether you tell the friend why you are moving away. I would say not, which all leaves room for "redemption" in the future.

[Jeannie]

I think you can still love someone and hate their actions. I think you can make that plain. I think for me the friendship depends on what happens next. Are they repentant? Do they admit the error (even if they can't fix it)? Do they want to be better, learn from this? People make mistakes. Even big ones. Everyone deserves forgiveness and a second chance.

But maybe only one chance. :)

[Sarah]

A dear friend of ours was basically left by his wife when SHE had a midlife crisis. He took up with their nanny. I was apalled by the whole mess and had nothing to do with either of them for quite a while. But he is back, sans nanny and we missed him. We do not speak of said nanny. ;)

As for ladybug onsies, I too had a hard time with all the offers of happy endings when we struggled. It seemed everyone else had more signs of hope than we had (we had very few blips of anything to even pin a dream on), and I was so bitchy about it. Thankfully I wasn't blogging about it. Just posting horrible things about those who pretended to have some clue what it was like to "welcome" four nephews and niece in the span of three years while trying to start your own family and failing.

Boy do I NOT miss those years. And thankfully I came out the other side and am happy to have a stinky silly boy who thinks poop is the funniest word ever.

[Linda]

That sounds exactly how chores get done in our house. We are aware that something needs to be completed but darned if we know how to do the other's job.

As for your friend's predicament... I think that if it's the first thing, you can't be friends with him anymore. I know that I would never be able to get the thought out of my head that leaving his family, that could happen to me. I wouldn't be able to look at him as my friend, a person who is flawed but I love anyway. All I could see is the fear that that could happen to me. (Which is ridiculous as I'm married to a fantastic man who is desperately afraid that I will die before he does.)

[Jana]

I have a personal philosophy that I like to call (usually just in my head): Fuck that(those) motherfucker(s). If it seems that my friendship with someone has turned out to be less a relationship and more just me putting up with their bullshit I say (again, usually just in my head) "Fuck that motherfucker" and move on. I have met my crazy quota and don't need any more, thanks.

I'd like to add, though, that I totally agree with Shawna. If said motherfucker knew me during my 20s they get extra consideration.

[Sydnew]

Why did they do the horrible thing? Does it make sense to them? Is it the kind of horrible thing where maybe there's some piece to the story that you don't have, ie unmedicated bi-polar disorder or some such thing? And how close is the friendship? Is this a good friend that you're emotionally connected to or is this a casual friend (even if of the "known for years and years" category)?

There are some things that are impossible to get over: I knew a guy once who went camping with his girlfriend and the girlfriend didn't come back from the camping trip. Like, ever. They never found her. Maybe she did, in fact, wander off, got lost, broke an ankle, couldn't get back, and died an accidental death in the woods, but maybe she didn't, too, and it was impossible to stay friendly.

That said, our friends need us most when they're screwing up. If we can't be there to say "what you did was beyond the pale," who will?

[Maggie]

I have a beloved friend. He did something I haven't been able to forgive him for, but dead people can't even ask for forgiveness. We keep saying, why didn't he just leave, abandon the wife and kids, go do whatever the hell he wanted to and be selfish, instead of doing this horrible thing? We could understand and forgive any of those rotten selfish acts, but not this one. I don't know what your friend did, but I'd vote on at least keeping an open mind, trying to forgive him, and see what happens in the future. Hopefully you don't have to make that decision right now.

I love this post. I need to reread it too to figure out where we started and where we ended and how we got there, but I love your writing, so that's an easy task!

[Brenna]

Like AR says above, it really depends. Someone leaving their wife for a younger person? Not particularly shocking, happens all the time. Leaving puppies on the side of the road? Despicable to be sure, but I would be interested in hearing their reasoning. Defrauding an orphanage? Again, despicable and most likely unjustifiable, and I probably wouldn't continue the friendship.

All a long-winded way to say, without knowing the person and the specific circumstances, it's hard to say. And even then you'd probably get a different answer from everyone.

My one piece of advice that serves many situations: When someone shows you who they are (whether through word or action) BELIEVE THEM. Many times I have been hurt by someone, and looking back on the situation, I see that it could have been avoided if I had only paid better attention. We are oftentimes too eager to dismiss other's shortcomings, because we know that nobody is perfect and because we hope that people will be as generous in their assessment of our own character. But occasionally what we dismiss as a mere imperfection is actually a fatal character flaw, a red flag waving in our faces.

I tell this to my daughter, an almost 7th grader dealing with two-faced friends and other pre-teen loyalty issues. I tell her that it's easier for an unkind person to act nicely when it suits them than it is for a kind person to act meanly. Anyone can had a bad day, but generally speaking, a person will act within the confines of their character. A good person won't be cruel just because they're in a bad mood.

Good grief, sorry this is so long.

[Shandra]

While there are limits to my acceptance - abuse of children and spouses for example; child porn - I think I would always have a conversation with a close friend. Actually I have had one recently. It goes like this: "I really care about. I have to tell you though, that X decision of yours is really straining my faith in you. I truly believe you're better than that. Can you explain to me what you were thinking?"

And then I listen. In this recent case, my friend's explanation for a pretty egregious long-term series of bad choices just isn't satisfying me, so I'm backing down on the friendship...I think for the first time; maybe it's being 40 and people are starting to freak out in ways harmful to their families, I don't know. By backing down I mean I'm not confiding in my friend, chatting online as much, etc. I'm not initiating things and I'm keeping our chat superficial. I haven't dramatically said/done anything, except my one piece.

But I'm not sure I would close the door entirely. In 3-5 yrs when he realizes what an incredibly bad thing he did, if he brings it up (or gets in touch, 'cause I'm not sure we'll be in touch any longer at that point) maybe that bond will still be there. But only if I have had the space to truly express my dismay and be heard about it.

[Julie]

Thanks for the reminder about happy endings. You are right, of course. But it so hard to see that a different ending can be just as happy when in the midst of bone-crushing sadness.

Caroline. God, she is beautiful. Love the dress! (And her hair. She has the best hair of any three year old anywhere).

[Leslie in Toronto]

I have had friends and family do very mean, hurtful things to others (and to me) and I try to look at the reason behind the action. Take the puppy example ... if the person did it because they simply were at the end of his/her rope and knew someone would come by to rescue them, then maybe I could forgive and forget. But if it was a willful case of stupidity/neglect/selfishness, then that would be it for that friendship. Sometimes people do stupid things because of a hard time in life (and live to regret it and apologize), and sometimes they do stupid things because they have given up caring about anyone but themselves. That is my litmus test.

[Barbara]

Automatic bill paying really only works if you pay the same thing every billing period. So, great for car payments, mortgages and NY Time subscriptions. Not so great for utility bills (unless you subsidize them using level billing), credit cards or yard services. So, some but not all are great. And I do all my bill paying online with a spreadsheet locally to keep track.

Forgiveness is a wonderful thing.

[Anne]

Love the dress.
Would it be wrong or inappropriate to ask why, for example, the puppies were abandoned? As in, "That just doesn't sound like you. Why did you do it? What in the world was going on?"
Just maybe, the answer would determine whether or not you would want to continue the friendship.

[Monica C.]

Have a good friend who, I recently found out, cheated with the husband of another friend of ours (all parties, including the cheaters and the cheatees, were married at the time). My friend and her husband divorced after 18 years of marriage and three kids due - mostly - to this affair. The worse part is that this "friend" was calling and texting my friend during the affair, desperately trying to make sure that my friend found out the ugly truth.

If I found out that a friend "merely" had an affair, I would probably still be friends with that person; after all, that would be between my friend and his/her spouse. But in this scenario, where this "friend" of mine slept with our mutual friend's husband and embarked on a campaign of *harassment* towards the wife -- whom she was also friends with, for God's sake -- I have lost all respect for this "friend."

Here's the problem - we are part of the same social circle and our kids and husbands are good friends (in fact we are all traveling together this July on a trip that has been planned since 2009). There would be no way for me to discreetly stop being friends with this "friend" - oh, also, this friend's husband knows nothing.

What a tangled web we weave ... and I prefer to be left out of it!

[Becky]

First- the dress is adorable! Also, we all say things we wish we hadn't. I think they all sort of even out. Plus, you sort of had a lot to be upset about.

Second- I'm not a huge fan of hate the sin, not the sinner, silent judgement and related philosophies. So, I would be inclined to decide if I could totally forgive the person and act in a fairly kind and friendly manner or not. You don't have to end the friendship forever but maybe just tell them that you found that behavior or choice really unpalatable and out of keeping with your life philosophy and you just would rather not interact with him right now.

Third- I am all about the paranoid financial practices and my husband wasn't so much. We did a Dave Ramsey class and that helped a lot. It seems to work better if you do something because "Dave said" rather than from your simple paranoia. Also, I found that once we were both on the same page, I got a lot less anxious because I knew what the plan was. I would imagine you could get a similar result with Suze Orman.

[victoria]

Re: your evil puppy-abandoning friend: yes, I think you should continue to be his friend and might even consider giving his new ladyfriend helpful advice about how not to carry the freshman fifteen gracefully and not freak out about midterms.

You're his friend, not his confessor, and so long as he hasn't behaved badly to you, you should not punish him for his wrongs to others.

(This was written by an ethical vegetarian of 26 years' standing whose husband's appetite regularly supports the commission of heinous, unspeakable acts against animals that are defenseless as the boxful of puppies.)

[Six Impossible Things]

I'll raise my hand as testament to the other kind of happy ending. We didn't birth a baby and we didn't adopt, and here we are having a completely different life than we would have had had we had kids. And it's a really good life, even if sometimes I'm sad about the no-kid thing. If I did have kids, sometimes I'd probably be sad about something else.

[crystal]

My mother bought that exact dress for my niece! Kohls? I added red and white candy cane looking leg warmers on a chilly day a few weeks ago. Forever changing Texas weather...
As for the friend thing, I scrolled through the other comments and those people who said they would maintain the friendship mentioned forgiveness. I am one of those who believe people can change. We all do horrible things, and we all use different scales to measure the seriousness of the offense, so we all react differently. I think if this friend that did this horrible thing has acknowledged his/her wrongdoing and is trying to make up for it, you should support him/her. If the person is being incorrigible, then do you really want that presence in your life?

[Jane]

If this person was truly a friend and not just an acquaintance, I would be loyal. But then, it take *A LOT* for me to call someone a friend, and as a consequence, I don't have many of them. I don't like to lose them. In fact, even if this unspeakable act was done to me I would still remain their friend (I would ask for an explanation, though.)

[Jenn]

One of my dearest friends is having the mother of all mid-life crises. Parenting is more work than she expected, marriage is too stifling etc. etc. So she's left it all behind her to hang with a crowd of child-free folks, is dating all sorts of inappropriate guys, and her kids and husband are basically roadkill. Name a cliche, she's doing it. This KILLS me. I have spent months wringing my hands and wanting to do SOMETHING to change things. But I recently came to the conclusion that it is her life, she doesn't want to change it and it's not up to me to be the morality police. That being said she isn't even remotely close to a good friend anymore -- we're too different now. But we are friendly and I just have to plug my ears and pretend that she hasn't destroyed her family for no good reason. I guess this sounds like I am judging, but I am trying my best not to!

And your ladybug is too cute for words. She has the prettiest baby teeth, does that sound weird?

[SarahB]

What does said friend have to say for him or herself? That's where I'd start. Is there acknowledgement of wrong-doing? Is it the kind of friend to whom you can say, "What the hell were you thinking?" We all make mistakes, some obviously more egregious than others. Should I foul up in life royally sometime, I hope that I'd come through it with a few friendships intact, that someone would stick around to remind my shattered self what I used to be like and support me while I made amends.

Also, I love paying bills online. Auto bill pay scares my husband (What if we don't have enough cash for some reason?), but we have almost all our bills set up through the bank, so I just go on payday, click a few times, and all is paid. It's great.

[HereWeGoAJen]

I had a friend who used to do horrible things and I always forgave her. And then she did them to me. I wish I had protected my heart a little bit better and that I had actually realized what kind of person she was instead of just forgiving her because she was a friend. So now I am much more careful.

[Jessica]

It seems people have a lot of questions about the friend thing, but I would only have one: does the friend acknowledge this was a stupid thing to do? Even if said acknowledgement came after it was obvious - like say he was about to go to jail for defrauding the orphanage or the freshman girl has started going to wild parties and cheating on him.

No matter how "stand by your friends" someone wants to be, I just don't think you can unless the friend admits this is behavior he wouldn't repeat...

[janet]

I am a longtime reader and lurker but wanted to say thanks for this post, specifically the ladybug onesie part. My husband has a BT too, and I have a lot more hope for our future family because of your amazing family. Even if the process is kind of sh*tty with this stupid diagnosis.

[Laura]

Someone said it above--"When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE THEM!" Life is too short to put up with the crap of a**hats. A friend of 25 years recently left his wife and 4 minor children to follow his (new, MUCH younger) girlfriend across the country. I am focusing all energies on the wronged parties, i.e., the wife and kids. He is dead to me. Judgmental, hell yes! Who do you want in your life, good people or jerks?? I don't have a lot of free time, so I only choose good people. Jesus has to forgive 'em, I don't.

I have two eighteen-month-old miracles in ladybug onesies. Yeah, it took me six years and a lot of cash and many losses to get them, but I find that my street cred as a hardcore infertile is faltering these days. It's hard to adequately convey the pain of IVF failure and miscarriage to those still on the journey when I have toddlers crawling all over me. I'm on "the other side," and I thank God every day.

[Christy]

I see brenna beat me to that Maya Angelo saying that I came in here to share..when someone shows you who they are, believe them. To me that doesn't necessarily mean that people can't ever change, or can't be forgiven, but the guy who defrauded an orphanage or drowned a bag of puppies is never going to be the same friend he was before that happened (assuming you decide to continue the friendship). From personal experience, I've had to remember this when dealing with my boss, who really really wants to be buddies with the staff, but I will never, ever forget that e was the guy who wrote me up with HR because I didn't get him a wedding present.

[sheilah]

You can hate the action but still care for the perpetrator. I think I would let this person know that I disapproved of his/her action but still cared for him/her. There are two sides to everything and unless you can walk a mile in his/her shoes you are not qualified to judge (unless your friend is the Unabomber or that guy that killed his family & tried to run to Mexico...).

Caroline in gorgeous in anything...even ladybugs.

[Carla Hinkle]

I have had bad behavior situations in my life and it's a mixed bag. If it's family or a very close friend I usually forgive or at least move past it, but it may take a while. Years. And that the bad behavior is not repeated. My dad did some stuff I still hate when splitting from my mom 10 years ago. We have basically moved past it and have, for all intents and purposes, a good relationship. Though he'll never get back 100% of what we had. That's life, too, I think.

[LMM]

So, here's my question: What do YOU hope to get out of the friendship going forward? I mean, do you even LIKE this person at this point? If it's all work and uphill battle from here on out, then is it worth it to keep them around? If it's not, and the person has remorse for whatever hurt they've cause to others, then maybe you can get past it.
I know people - ahem - who weren't exactly all the way out of a relationship before starting a new one and everything turned out OK for the most part.
I also know a guy that cheated on his wife repeatedly, got one girlfriend pregnant, left his wife and their 4 small children and moved out of state with the GF and their baby. The carnage was spread far and wide. If circumstances didn't dictate it, I'd happily never see him again because I don't LIKE him so why would I want him to be my friend?

[Stephanie]

It really, really depends. Abandoned wife and children for freshman girlfriend, honestly probably not. I would think the abandoned wife needed/deserved my loyalty, even if we weren't that close before. I don't know if I would ignore them in the grocery store, but there are certainly things a person can do that don't directly affect me which would make me decide my limited friendship energy should really be applied somewhere else.

[Kirsten]

I think people need their friends most when they are acting poorly. And hasn't everyone acted poorly at some point? And then wouldn't it have been nice to have a friend there to help you get back on track? Now of course if this were a friend that consistently acted poorly, that's another matter. But I am assuming not, since you are friends. The trouble with applying the phrase "when someone shows you who they are, believe them" in whatever this situation may be, is that perhaps the person's daily actions for however long you have been friends is more of who they are than this one episode. I would err on the side of believing in what you have known of the friend in the past, and seeing if this episode isn't an aberration.

[nicol]

I don't know about the friendship part but the previous 2WW post then the baby commentary on this post really had me thinking you were adding a #4.

[Candy]

I have always tried to live by the rule that unless the awful thing a friend did was to ME, I didn't really have a card to play in the forgiveness game. It doesn't always work, because when the person someone has offended badly turns out to be your sister that the friend left for someone with the same first name as you, it can get tricky. I don't think that helped you at all, but yeah, I'd probably forgive unless he did something to me personally (or my husband and/or kids).

[Liz]

The lady bug onesie comment was dead on at the time... whatever regret you felt about it, it was honest and a clear communication of what you needed in that moment. It wasn't a condemnation of anyone else. As much as those of us inside the interwebs celebrated the news of 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 and so forth and as much as we hoped and wished for good outcomes and grieved their losses, there were those among us who seemed to think a chin in the upright position would affect the outcome in ways it couldn't. Optimism and pragmatism are both good. And frankly, your openness about not wanting to hear it taught me an important lesson about shutting the eff up with words that are there to make *me* feel better, not the person who is in actual pain.

[lb]

I remember the ladybug onesie comment, and I didn't think it was petty at all. It made me think about the kind of comments we make, both in real life and online, and how sometimes people don't want to have sunshine blown up their ass. Sometimes all people want is for someone to say - yes, that sucks, that really sucks, and I am sorry. I tend to be a relentless optimist, and it made me think about how there is a place for optimism, but it can also be annoying.

As for your friend, I think the friendship might cool for a while, but I couldn't write him/her off completely. Adults sometimes make bad decisions, I'm coming to realize, and while they do deserve to be judged for them, they don't necessarily deserve to be hanged for them.

[winecat]

It would depend on the degree of 'badness' for me. Leaving a spouse and children for a college freshman - gone banished from my life. Box of puppies left on the side equally heinous.

I think I'd let a person who could leave a box of puppies to die drift out of my life.

[Bianca]

I would forgive the cheating friend, less forgive the puppies on the side of the road, definitely not stay friends with the defrauding of an orphanage.

My feelings are people cheat on their spouses and it's NOT a reason to not be friends with them. People always say, "They cheated on their wife and left their kids!" Well, they may have cheated on their wife (or husband) but moving out is *not* leaving their kids. Dropping contact and moving 4000 miles away and no longer seeing your children is leaving your kids, but plenty of people cheat and leave their spouse and make full well they see and co-raise their children. People make mistakes all the time. So indeed if friend left town permanently with new girlfriend I might stop contact, but if they simply left their wife to move in with someone new, I might partially forgive (with the caveat that they still screwed up and I would be reticent with my full support for awhile).

So many of my friends have had affairs/one night stands or divorces and new marriages based on infidelity (which may seem unethical to many), you simply have to forgive those types of things or else you would have no friends (or I wouldn't!) Still, if you being purposely evil (puppies) or a greedy money grubbing monster (orphanage) than that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

[Sheila Z]

In order to forgive something dreadful I'd have to be convinced the person did the bad deed under the influence or in a state of mental illness, the condition had been corrected, and the doer was remorseful for what had happened. Otherwise history tends to repeat itself and you may be the one to take the brunt of their crap next time. Especially if this person realizes you will forgive and forget any bad behavior.

[girlseven]

She looks lovely!
As for the question...I agree with the quote of a poster above. When a person shows you who they are, believe them. I think when a person is a full grown adult, and they are behaving in ways that hurt others...that person is showing who they are and it is up to you whether you can handle that kind of thing. Any of the above situations would not work for me.