Tuck In Your Elbows

I think this is how the astronauts felt when they came home. I'm not referring to the disorientation that must've come with finding the familiar suddenly strange but the part when they were smashed into the ocean at a zillion miles per hour and were then woken up at three am by crazy naked giggly elves.

Caroline and Edward were just... awake. Both of them. For good. At three in the morning. I suppose they're jet-lagged but we were driving and thus passed gently through the time zones not to mention the fact that we were going the other way so, really, the more likely explanation is that they are out to get me.

I just read this article in the Washington Post about a family who has 11 children under the age of 13. It seems to work for them and I admired the parents' various organizational strategies because I like that sort of thing but the line that stood out for me was when the mother said that the younger kids start going to bed at 7 and all of the children are in bed by 9 o'clock.

Or... what? They just go to bed and stay there? For real? What about when some variation of 11-x kids ask for water or the bathroom or... as is the case in my house circa ten minutes ago... what happens when their Edward starts weeping loudly in his room so they go up and he says, "SOB! I don't know how to 'pell zebra! SOB SOB SOB!"

Don't they tell him how to spell zebra or I am just a sucker? I mean, clearly I am a sucker because children take off their pajamas and climb into my bed in the middle of the night to gleefully announce that they are Lightning McQueen and Miss Sally respectively and that I am Flo and they need some gorganic fuel. But am I an incompetent sucker? Don't answer that.

Obviously her kids go to bed as stated or she'd be a gibbering idiot but HOW? HOW does she get eleven children to go to their beds and stay there and sleep every night? Someone once told me that at two and half Caroline was old enough to understand that when we said bed time it was bed time and she needed to stay in bed. I get that but I wondered about the 'or else'. Go to bed or else... what? 

I'm sort of musing but sort of asking. I expect Caroline and Edward will get back into a routine sooner or later but as I got into bed last night a little before eleven I said, "I just hope I can get six straight hours of sleep tonight without interruptions."

Then I did the math and said, "No, no. SEVEN. SEVEN hours."

Edward woke me up at 5:54.

So that has been the negative side of extended travel with Caroline and Edward. The positive side is that they bonded. Uberbonded. The rest of us admired the mountains while Caroline and Edward took the two weeks of constant companionship and sealed themselves into some sort of together-forever-and-ever, you-complete-me twinitude. Which is sweet. Of course it is sweet. They played together and slept side-by-side and told each other how terrific they are

[Setting: Somewhere in North Dakota

Edward - I know to count to one hunnerd

Steve Patrick Me Caroline - Great!

Edward - I will count to one hunnerd now

Steve Patrick Me - That's ok, we believe you

Caroline - Go for it little buddy!

Edward (very slowly) One Two Tree Foh Five... Tirty-six Tirty-seben... Fitty-two...

Steve Patrick Me - Uhhhnn

Edward - Sebenty-eight Sebenty-nine...

Caroline - You can do it!

Edward - Nindy-eight Nindy-nine... Nindy-nine... Nindy-nine

Steve Patrick Me - Aaaaaaaand?

Edward - Nindy-nine...

Caroline - One hundred?

Edward - ONE HUNNERD!

Caroline - I'm so proud of you

Edward - I do it again!

Steve Patrick and I put our fingers in our ears. Caroline said - OK!]

He let her help steer his ride. Enough said.

I liked the near daily posting (speaking of bonding - I felt like we were conversing in almost real time) and I shall endeavor to continue it. It will be less, well, scenic, but there it is. In the meantime I am working on a trip recap with a map and whatnot but to answer the most frequent question (although DJH handled the subject beautifully in the comments) a roll of aluminum foil is a great car toy. It is cheap, small, lightweight, appropriate for almost all ages, tidy and they can wad that stuff into pretty much anything for hours.

PS We never did see South Carolina or Rhode Island so our license plate total stands at 48 US states and 7 Canadian provinces. Today Patrick went with me to the grocery store to buy milk and apples and salsa (putting life back in order takes forever after a trip) and as I drove he whapped the states back into place in order to start our next round. We got five.

PPS Providence, Rhode Island is in my top ten favorite cities and as such I intended no disrespect to the state. I probably would not leave either. After all, when the wealthiest people in the wealthiest country at one of the wealthiest times in history chose to build vacation homes, where did they go? Rhode Island. I was merely frustrated that we failed to see one of their license plates.

PPPS I have no idea what's going on with South Carolina.

PPPPS Do kids usually just go to bed and stay there? Mine don't and short of breaking their thumbs I am not sure what to do about it.

Comments

[Carrie]

As for the sleep thing: I wonder how people do it as well. I am not good at getting kids to sleep.

Though when my son turned three we did finally get him to go to his room and stay in his room, but it took a lot of work. When he would come to us, we would silently lead him back to his bed and put him back in it. Over and over and over again. Silently. No talking, no matter what he said. It took a lot of discipline on our part.

Good luck!

[Heather]

Weeell, yes, my kids do get in bed and stay there. I hate to say that because it sounds so "I'm so much better than you, look at me, I can do bedtime." In truth it's just really that when they do call me after bedtime I'm so tired that I provide very substandard care. They have no incentive to request it. I have four kids. I imagine if I had eleven, I'd be even less likely to trudge wearily up the stairs to anything other than the sound of a puking child (gotta be the worse sound in the world).

[Julie]

I'm waiting with bated breath to read comments on this one. I started bedtime at 7pm tonight, and I *think* they're all asleep now. It only took slightly over three hours. Tonight was a bad night, but truthfully, we have a lot of bad nights. I ask myself if I am a sucker most nights, and I am afraid your readers will confirm that I am. But maybe I'll learn something.

Welcome home. I so enjoyed reading your daily posts. We go to WA every other year for a family reunion, so I took notes. (Jackson Hole! Why didn't we go to Jackson Hole this year? Next time for sure!)

[Leslie]

re:sleep....My 8 year old is pretty good about going to sleep but the 5 year old is awful! He tells me that he is "nocturnal and made to sleep in the day and play all night" (damn PBS shows about creatures of the night!). When that didn't work he told me that "God didn't make him for sleepin' in the night" and that "his eyes just don't work that way". It is all very cute and thus it makes it hard to argue with him :)

I will be watching your comments to see what words of wisdom others have!

Leslie

P.S. I am so happy to hear that youare going to attempt more frequent updates. I was sad when your trip ended as I thought we would not get daily doses of your wit and wisdom!!

PPS If they don't settle back into a more normal sleep schedule have you thought about trying liquid Melatonin? I have friends who swear by it but it has not worked for my 5 year old (of course). The 8 year old loves it and asks for it if I forget to give it to her

[Alexicographer]

I'll read the sleep comments with interest. I have just one kid and I like him (how quaint), and I work full-time away from home (which I also like), so as I do actually find him cute and charming and haven't seen tons of him on any given weekday I'm somewhat ambivalent about, "JUST GO BACK TO YOUR BEDROOM RIGHT NOW!" Though there are times when it has a certain appeal (tonight was one). Plus, at 4, he's started napping again, which is fine -- if he's tired, he's tired -- but unfortunately he seems at this point to need, net, about 10 hours of sleep and if he wastes 2 of them on a nap, well, you can do the math (and envy me, no doubt, sorry about that). I will say that once mine is asleep he stays that way almost without fail, but I take no credit for that, he's just the way he is. Oh, and he's a morning person, which -- I? -- am not. I blame his father.

I have started telling him he has to stay in his bedroom (not in his bed) or giving him a small number of times he can come out and that I will go in (typically 2 or 3). And that has worked moderately well for us. I've also just taken to telling him I need some quiet time or some "me" time in the evening because, well, I do, and if there's too much chattering I tell him, "We can talk about that tomorrow."

And, yeah, travel messes with sleep, especially if it involves crossing time zones.

[JP]

I love how Edward 'talks' through your writing. Thanks for sharing (and shortening) it here. I am sure that made for a long few miles!
So far on the sleeping, Tot is in his bed all night, but he's not yet two and not yet climbing from his crib. Part of it is surely luck, and part of it has to be training for both parent and child. I SO want Tot to sleep with us, but I KNOW that he is the only one who sleeps when that happens, so I resist the urge. Also, it helps me resist to know that we have friends whose six year old will not (nor is she consistently made to) sleep in her own bed.

[HereWeGoAJen]

My kid stays in bed. But that is because even though she is two and a half, her bed still has bars around it. I am campaigning to find someone to make lids for cribs. Then we would really have something there. (And I will take her out of her crib when her legs start to poke out through the bars. Maybe.)

[Rachel]

Honestly, have been a babysitter/nanny of countless children over countless years and for countless bedtimes, I really don't think there's any kind of magic answer. I think some kids go to bed easily and some simply don't.

I know that's not what most people like to hear, but I swear it seems to be the truth. The kids that were truly tired at night (not overly tired, but just tired enough to conk out) always seemed to go to sleep the easiest and they were always the same kids. The kids that were always clearly overly tired seemed to be the worst and then of course there were the kids who you could tell just by looking at them could go half the night and truly weren't tired at all.

I never found the magic trick to getting any kids to sleep, but I did find that by the time a child was in between 2 and 3 (usually closer to 3) they were quite capable of staying in their room if the rules were set. Making sure they have had a snack, drink and use the potty right before bed makes it easy to say "No, you are not hungry/thirsty, do not need to pee again."

With morning hours, there are night lights with timers that you can get. You can't make a child who is not tired fall asleep, but you can say "When you wake up in the morning and mommy is asleep you cannot come wake her up until this light goes off." (unless you're sick/have a nightmare/etc..) Then set the light for a reasonable hour and tell them that they may play in their rooms until it goes off in the morning.

I have always said that one of the reasons I will probably never have my own children is because I value my sleep too highly. I can deal with it for periods of time when it's other people's kids and I know it's temporary (and I often do and deal just fine), but mother's who do this for years and years at a time are saints in my book!

[Megan]

My twin almost-three-year-old boys have always been pretty good about staying in bed. At first it was because they couldn't work our doorknobs (not because they tried and failed to get out of their room but because they knew they couldn't work the doorknob, so they didn't try), but since they figured out how to open doors (like six or so months ago), one of them has come out twice and the other one never. Our success, I think, has been because we don't make interactions with them after they've been put to bed a rewarding experience. We take care of as many of their needs as we can before we put them to bed (potty, drinks, etc.), and then that's it. Any interactions after that (checking on crying, putting a kid back in bed) are kept as short and simple as possible (e.g. Sobbing about not knowing how to spell zebra -- no matter how stinkin' adorable it may be -- would be addressed with, "It's time to go to sleep. I'll tell you how to spell zebra tomorrow. Good night.") When they figure out it's not going to be fun to call mom to their room or get out of bed, most kids stop doing it.

[LRM]

I echo the enthusiasm for more posting! I just adore your writing and your family (but not in a creepy stalker way...)

We've been pretty successful with our two and bed, but I don't know that we're not just lucky with mostly compliant good sleepers, so I hesitate to dish advice like I've got the world on a string here. So, with grain of salt, we have always insisted, firmly, that bed means bed and do not respond with conversation or fun time when called. You're right that there really isn't much of an 'or else' especially for the 3 1/2 year old. We did have some luck with an 'or else' for the 7 1/2 year old though. He got into a pattern of calling out with increasingly ridiculous requests/pronouncements after bedtime at one point last school year. This was rewarded with our reinstating post-school 'nap time' to make up for the sleep he was clearly missing out on, the poor dear. Home from school, snack, into bed for an hour. That cured him pretty quickly.

With my girl, it's the old brief and boring which mostly works.

Best of luck. Glad you had a good trip (how are the colds?).

[Jessica]

My daughter stays put after her bedtime routine. But I am sheepish to say that it is not through any patient, kind tutoring on my part. When we moved her into her "big girl room" about a year ago in preparation for needing the nursery for baby#2 she got out of bed repeatedly the first night. I was uber-patient and simply walked her back and tucked her in. That happened about every thirty minutes the entire night. Fast-forward to me being hateful shrew the next day due to being 7 months pregnant and having no sleep. Something had to give. So when she got out of bed the first time that night I marched her right back and told her if she got up again I would spank her. She got up, I spanked her, tucked get back in, and everyone got a good night's sleep. We have had no problems ever since. Like I said, not a parenting moment I am proud of, but it worked.

[Stephanie]

10 years into being a parent and the only way my kids go to bed when I want them to and stay in bed is if I lay down with them until they go to sleep. I have been a virtual prisoner of bedtime . . and once school starts it will be even harder because bedtime is earlier.

[May]

I second/third/fourth the brief and boring bit. Once they find it's not fun to get out of bed, they stop. And I will stoop to threats. If you get up again then no TV tomorrow etc. You will have to follow through with the threat the first time, but if you choose your threat carefully, then probably never again.

I enjoyed these posts as we, too, are road-tripping right now. My youngest is the same age as E&C. DVD player plus 2 new Max and Ruby DVDs: not a peep for the three days we dawdled up the coast from San Diego to San Francisco. Score!

[Melissa H]

I am no help on the sleep thing as my almost six year old won't go to sleep alone nor stay in bed consistently. So basically I need to read the comments or get my mom's secret. My mom is a preschool teacher and I am always AMAZED how preschool teachers can get 20 preschoolers asleep for naps on cots IN THE SAME ROOM. If it weren't my mom I'd think they drug them but really? Some sort of peer pressure induced sleep? Maybe the family of 11 has the same thing going. No clue.

LOVED the anecdote about C&E and even more the photo of them :)

[Rachel]

PS -- to add to my post about a child staying in their room after put to bed at night or until an appointed time in the morning (night light going off, alarm clock, etc...)... I don't think there needs to be an "or else". It simply is. You are the adult and you make the rules and as much as I'm sure we all cringe at this statement, "you will do it because I said so."

[Davida]

I was _going_ to write that only now at 4.5 does my own girl reliably fall asleep on her own and stay in her own bed. Then I realized this is only true on one end of bedtime (the start) and she still almost inevitably wakes up before it is time and needs company in her bed or mine to finish out the night. )When it is my bed, she is squirrelly, and I end up in the guest bedroom.)

So obviously I am no help.

[Jessica]

My guess is those 11 kids are in communal rooms and maybe they have less need for mom/dad because the presence of siblings comforts them?

My two-year-old sleeps with a water bottle (I don't want to say it's un-spillable, but so far it's never leaked), which means there's no asking for a drink of water.

I would looooove it if you posted more frequently!

[Kirsten]

OMG sleep. We switched my daughter to a toddler bed 2 months before she turned 3 and it was heavenly for 5 months. She didn't know she could get out of bed by herself so she would just call us when she was ready to get up in the morning. We have the clock that lights up green at a prescribed wake up time. Then, one night, she figured it out. I did the "silent return to sleep" making it as boring as possible and it just egged her on. We made a poster of sleep rules. We instituted a sticker chart. I told her to stay in her bed. We tried having her dad return her to bed because she highly prefers me in the middle of the night,to put it lightly. Nothing worked and we were putting her back in her room 15-30 times per night between the hours of 10pm and 6am. Oh, did I mention I have a 3 month old who FINALLY started going more than 2 hours between feedings? So baby is asleep in his pack&play in our room and I'm keeping a sleep log of how many times we put his sister back to bed between the hours of 3 and 4 am (answer: 8 times) I really felt like I was going insane. Then I remembered our Phil and Ted's traveler tent...only opens from the outside. Now every night she chooses bed or tent and if she chooses bed and gets out, then we choose tent for her. Interestingly, she has only chosen to sleep in the tent for naps and night for the past 2 weeks we've been doing this. Night waking stopped after the first night of about 10 minutes of crying and she's back to taking 2 hour naps each day. She can sleep in that tent as long as she wants. Didn't you mention Peapod tents maybe last summer? The big kid ones open from the inside (WHY?!) but the regular style doesn't. Caroline might especially like it, given her penchant for nesting, and you would know that she wasn't on the roof! Also, they sell bed tents that are technically designed for children on the autism spectrum, but that's another option if your kids are too big for a crib but not mature enough to deal with the big kid bed responsibility. Really, asking them to parent and monitor themselves for 10+ hours a night is insane. It's surprising how many kids just go to bed and stay there. I know this is long, but it's an issue close to my heart. :)

[Kerri]

I am giddy. Not only at the thought of semi-daily posts, but also that I might learn how the eff people get their kids to go to bed without a fight AND sleep thru the night...in their own beds. I have a five-year-old, who has recently regressed ridiculously about sleeping through the night, and three-year-old b/g twins, of which the girl is horrible, won't go to sleep, multiple wake-ups every night, in my bed before dawn every day. Gah! There are many nights when it's not only the little ones who are crying.

[jill]

Found this on the internet and thought of you -- enjoy! The full name of the post is "10 Reasons having a toddler is like being at a frat party." It's not my blog, it just made me laugh :-)

http://www.suburbansnapshots.com/2010/06/10-reasons-having-toddler-is-like-being.html

[Zannah]

Did anyone else get the lovely "hot chick just one click away!!!" ads along with the usual Julia-esque book ads, or am I just lucky?

[Ellie]

Maybe my parenting/sleep philosophy is unusual, I don't know. But here's the thing: we don't expect adults who are in intimate relationships to sleep alone -- and not merely because of the obvious! -- we expect them to share sleep due to the love, companionship, comfort associated thereof, and tend (as a society) to find it most peculiar if couples do not co-sleep.

But for some reason, we expect human young to sleep alone from a very young age: to self soothe, to be denied human companionship, to remain *alone* for several hours in any given 24-hr cycle. And we tend (as a culture, here in the US) to frown on families who co-sleep.

I suppose I've just never tended to fuss about it. I've been a parent for 22 years (bless) and sharing a bed or bedroom or otherwise being there, unconditionally, for my child, regardless of the hour, is just how I roll.

I am in no way judging others, nor do I feel that my way is the best or the only -- it is merely what works for us. Children need companionship just as much as anyone else, whether it is day or night and if they don't want to be alone, well ... If it's my kids I'll let them be with me, but I am not saying everyone needs to parent like me.

Anyway, I suppose I am only babbling, I have no coherent advice, I suppose, about getting them to sleep elsewhere, if they want to be with you. I'm sorry. Lack of sleep is a bear, and I truly wish you well with it!

[Veronica]

I enjoyed your near daily posting too.

As for kids and sleep, ha. Don't ask me. I have a constant stream of "but I'm hungry" "but I needa drink" etc at bedtime. Does my head in.

[Shannon]

O! would that you post more often! That would make my heart SO happy! As for sleep, my one and only child is 6 weeks old in... 30 minutes, so she pretty much stays where I put her right now. And she hasn't yet started asking how to spell zebra (but who could resist that kind of plea? You'd have to have a heart of stone!).

[kate]

I’ve kind of made sleep into a little obsession of mine.
It comes down to a few things for me:
• Make sure they’re tired. So, don’t let them sleep during the day (EVER, not even in the car), make sure they didn’t sleep in late that morning, and make sure they had plenty of physical activity during the day.
• Keep it so they’re going to bed around the same time every night, and stick to a routine, even for older kids (bath, play, snack, book, teeth, toilet, bed; or whatever works for you).
• Attend to all needs before bed. So, give them a snack if they’re at all likely to be hungry, give them a drink when they brush their teeth, and make them go to the toilet. This way there’s no excuses for coming out.
• Spend quality time with them at bedtime (books, songs etc.)
• Make sure they know you won’t give them any more attention once that time is over.
• Try using a digital clock to set a time when they can call out- e.g. “It’s 7:45 now, you can call for me when the clock says 7:55, and I’ll come back and give you one last kiss”. Watching the clock for 10 minutes often makes a tired kid fall asleep. Or, if they do call out, try the “I’ll be there in a few minutes” thing- they often fall asleep while they’re waiting, and it’s nice for them to have the reassurance of hearing your voice.
• Find their currency for a bribe or threat if they come out. For most kids “if you come out, I will shut (lock) the door” is enough, as long as you follow through with it. Other kids may need “I will turn off the hall light”, “I will take all the light globes out of your bedroom”, “I’ll give you 5 M&Ms in the morning if you go straight to sleep”, or whatever. Only make bribes you will follow through with.
• If they’re consistently waking too early, set a light or music on a timer and tell them they can get up when it comes on. Initially, set it to come on around the time they’re waking now. Then move it back by 5 minutes every day.
Maybe these things wouldn’t work for everyone, but they’ve been good for me.

[justdawn]

Thanks for sharing your vacation with us. We have lived in Germany for almost 10 years and what we crave the most is a good, old fashioned road trip across the US/Canada.

Re; sleep...I have four kids. I co-slept until they were night-weaned (usually somewhere between 8-12 months) and then I put them to bed in their cribs. I think I must have just gotten really, really lucky because once they weren't babies anymore, they just slept. Maybe it's because I am evil when I am woken up needlessly so it's a survival instinct for them to just leave me the heck alone in the middle of the night...who knows. I will say that my youngest did have a habit of sneaking into my bed in the middle of the night for a few years but he was so stealthy, I had no idea he was there until I woke up in the morning and there he was.

Good luck with the sleep issues. I think I would become homicidal without 8 hours of sleep per night.

[Rose]

We've had one night with no kids in our bed in the last 7+ years. ONE night. It was in June, I think.

The almost 2 year old is the one who comes into our bed shortly after we get there, and spends the night. And wakes up at 5:30 or so and usually won't go back to sleep. But he goes to bed pretty easily.

The 7 and 4 year olds, however, do not go to bed without fighting and moaning and dragging their feet. The idea of routine is great, but we've had the same routine for years and it still takes us telling the oldest about 20 times that it's time to brush teeth to make him move off the couch. Or we have to pick him up and drag him. And he's been staying up til 10pm lately, partly because it takes so long to get the middle one to sleep. The 4 year old needs stories and one of us to lie with him, but after that he often keeps running out of his room, and no, we do not make interactions fun, but it doesn't matter. He comes out hitting and kicking us. There's no fun in it, but hey, he's not in his bed so he's winning.

We're trying a new strategy this week: the big ones get jammies on, get teeth brushed, and go in their (shared) room at 8:30 and the only rules are Be quiet and Don't come out. And otherwise we don't care what you do. We'll go in around 10 and say lights off, now the rule is Stay in Bed. It worked beautifully for a couple of nights, and we had evenings to ourselves again, but now the 4yo is getting soooo tired that he's fighting that too.

But at least those two sleep in til a decent hour. (Like after 8 or 9am.)

Fun fun fun. I don't understand people whose kids just go to bed either.

And why am I still up when little one will be up in 5 hours?

[Vanessa]

I wish I had some great advice for you, but while I was reading this post at midnight, my almost-13-year-old daughter came out of her room, got a drink of water, then said "I'm lonely. Will you come and stay with me in my room?" I think it's safe to say that if there was a bedtime war, I've lost it.

[Deanna]

My daughter was a demon about sleep until she was about 18 months and then it just sort of...stopped. I have no idea. Now she's two and a half and spends two hours in her room at quiet time (generally NOT napping but I say as long as it's dark and quiet it's none of my business how she chooses to use her time) and goes to bed around 8. I hear her playing for an hour but she falls asleep on her own. I have no idea if we did anything right or wrong with "sleep training" and I'm sure all my carefully crafted theories will be blown to hell when we have Baby 2 in November. She's not much of a "joiner" so I think the kid just enjoys her alone time and the opportunity to relax alone in a quiet room is soothing--and thus sleep-facilitating--for her.

For what it's worth, if we got up after our designated bedtime (and we shared a room) my mother would tell us that we had her all day long and this was her time, so short of illness we were to respect her time alone. We still speak and I enjoy her company, so I guess I'm not scarred. :)

[Linda]

I think it's a combination of luck and expectations. My little boogers got it at a pretty early age that I don't want to get out of bed to take care of me, much less someone who doesn't have any idea what they want. Nightmares and sick, I will take care of. Otherwise they have to stay in their rooms.

I think we eventually had to put the childproof doorknob on the big one's door and shut it at night. But he wasn't prone to your Caroline's adventures.

They don't have to sleep but they can't interrupt my sleep.

(Geez Louise, that sounded self-righteous. Seriously, I think that I'm lucky that they just take my expectations for granted and they've not really tried to test whether I'll give any more.)

[Bonnie]

Same as many of the above posters. My kids, 9 and 4 and 23 months, stay in bed because I'm pretty boring/borderline mean, after bedtime. I give them water and tell them if they can't sleep they can read or look at books or play quietly but I will not answer any questions or stay with them one extra second. If they have questions or issues I tell them I will answer them in the morning. If there's a real problem we will work on it but 'real' problems that can't wait are rare. I'm sorry, but that alone (or adult) time is all I have and it's just too precious to me to give up.

[Bobbie]

Your post made me remember a loooong ride home (in reality, an hour and 10 minutes) from my sister-in-law's house when Jack was 3. My in-laws were with us (you decide if that was a plus or minus). Jack was also counting to 100! But he kept messing up. And he knew it. But he wouldn't let us help him. He had his one and only temper tantrum of his life, screaming out various numbers and "I do it!" at the top of his lungs.

He is heading off to college in less than two weeks and I'm going to miss him!

[Kathy]

I really think it is just a matter of personalities (the kids' not the parents'). I have twin girls who have always had the same bed time routine... one goes to bed fine and sleeps all night on her own. The other is terrible - calling out to us at least a half dozen times before falling to sleep, and I often end up in her bed at some point during the night. I've made our night time interactions as boring as possible, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Debra]

Didn't they use gin back in the 19th century ?

When my daughter was that age, there would be various phases where she would sleep great and where she would not. Which meant I went through phases where I was half demented from lack of sleep. I have no advice to you except the comfort in knowing You Are Not Alone. Cold comfort, I am sure.

[Becky]

We go with straight bribery mixed with visual cues. We started with Charlie at 3 years, 2 months (a date emblazoned in my sleep deprived brain), Megan at around age 2 and Noah will probably start up around age 2. It takes some level of reasoning to really get the whole concept so it's not terribly effective before 2.5 or so.

We used this: http://www.goodnitelite.com/ for a couple of years and it was decorative and worked well but it was difficult to set so you couldn't easily change it for 30 minutes later on weekends or something like that and it looked really creepy when the moon lightbulbs started burning out. We eventually switched to setting the light on the fishtank to come on at wake-up time.

We then offered fruit chews to our children if they "made good choices" at night. If they woke from a nightmare or something like that, they still got the fruit chews, if it was to have a friendly chat at 3 am, no chews. We gradually switched the fruit chews to DHA gummies and dried fruit and it still works reasonably well. I think once you get over the hump, they sort of get in the habit of actually sleeping.

[txmama]

I'm afraid that ours (mostly) stay in bed after we deposit them there about 7:30. I suspect it's nature rather than nurture, I'm not taking any credit. Our five-year-old reappears pretty regularly to ask for water, and we point to the fridge and then say a pointed "Good night!"

They both are allowed to read until they fall asleep -- with school during the year and swimming during the summer it doesn't take very long.

In the mornings, ours could read digital clocks at 2 so we told them they were not allowed to come to our room in the morning until the first number was a 6 (unless sick or scared of course). After our daughter woke us gleefully once at 5:16 my DH covered up the last two numbers with black construction paper. Worked like a charm!

[Anna]

My son (almost 8) does go to bed and stay there 99% of the time. If he gets up at all it's only once and sending him back to bed will keep him there for the night. Considering that the first TWO YEARS of his life were spent with me begging, cajoling, arguing, bouncing, rocking, driving, singing, wrapping, swinging, and lying next to him for hours in order to get him to sleep for 45 MINUTES, I feel that I earned it. I don't know what made the switch but it happened all of a sudden at age 2 and he never looked back. Cosmic forces greater than I took part in this one, I think. I am ever grateful.

[Sam]

My kids are great at night (they're 2 and 4) and I'd love to say it's something we did, but I think we just lucked out. We have always stuck to a routine (jammies, teeth brushing, story, bed), but my best friend does the same thing and her kiddo is a nightmare at bedtime.

When my oldest was 2 1/2 or so we bought a $5 appliance timer and plugged a little lamp into it. It turned off at 8 pm-ish and came on at 7:30 am - she knew when that light was off she was supposed to stay in her room. It worked like a charm. We'll see if it works for our much more active son when he figures out how to open his bedroom door!

[Erinn Foley]

I am trying to find this article you speak of in the Washington Post...do you have a link? I'm not having any success finding it.

[Bethany]

Aw, the sleep, my poor, sweet Julia!

We pick and choose our battles as parents and sleep is probably lower on your list since you are a poor sleeper yourself, true?

If you are truly interested in changing sleeping habits (and it takes time, persistence, and consistency - and plenty of it as we all well know - so are you really ready for that? Just asking) I highly recommend the Good Nite Lite. I put up with crappy, crappy sleep the first 18 months of DD's life. She is the same age as the twins. At 18 months I truly felt she had the ability to understand that bedtime is for sleeping. The end. But, how do you convey that to someone who can't tell time? And, you can't go by the sun because that changes with the time of year.

Yes, the Good Nite Lite is nothing short of miraculous in my opinion and I have no ties to the company whatsoever.

When "Mr. Moon" is on it is time to go to bed. When "Mr. Sun" comes on, you can get out of bed and get up for the day. If you wake up and "Mr. Moon" is on, it is still sleepytime. No conversation, no cuddling. A simple explanation that it is still sleepytime, Mr. Sun isn't on yet, and plop back up on to the bed...Mommy and Daddy are still sleeping too. The end.

All things get better after a straight week of consistency. The big question when we are faced with these things as parents is: Are WE up for that challenge? If not, simply accept it and tackle the problem at the correct time...when you can no longer take it.

Thanks for all of the updates! I have to echo the Love it, Love it, Love it!

I'm still not sure this is a battle you want to pick.

[Sally]

I think morning people who turn into grumpy pumpkins at night (like me) end up with kids who go to bed easily. If you're a night person, then it's harder, because it really does feel more reasonable to keep interacting and engaging past bedtime. I can't do it. I just can't, so I don't. Ergo, they stopeed trying to engage me and started sleeping. The flip side is that I am actively engaged with them as soon as they wake up (usually before 6 am!) so our day starts bright and early with bounces and grins - something that I'm sure a non-morning-person would find horrendous. It's a trade off.

As for useful advice, I think the most useful thing we do is tone down the whole house for the evening. My kids get in the bath at 7 pm. While they're in there with Dad, I go around and close all the shades, turn off the overhead lights, turn on the little bedside lamps, set out the books, put on MY pjs and lay out theirs. When they leave the bathroom it's just OBVIOUS that it's bedtime - no interesting activity or bright lights in other rooms. Of course my husband and I stay up for a few hours after they're asleep BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THAT.

[Rayne of Terror]

We are reluctant co-sleepers with our two boys. It just works the best for all of us to get the most sleep. I'm over it with our 6 1/2 year old though, so in preparation for 1st grade I straight up bribed him. I offered him for 30 days I would pay him $1 per night that he went to bed without any fuss and stayed there all night. It was up to him to earn it and gosh darn it if he didn't earn $25 in 30 days, even with a minor illness and family visits and whatnot. Now the 30 days are over and it seems to be a habit.

[missie]

I have 4 children, and we've never had sleep or going to bed issues. Lest you think I'm bragging about my superior parenting skills, let me clarify by chalking it up to a combination of dumb luck and, as another commenter said, substandard care past bedtime hours. After 9pm it's my time, and unless you are pitifully sick, my husband and I can't hear you.

[rosie_kate]

We get teased by our friends about our oldest son who is quite the "old fuddy-duddy." He keeps us from staying out late. If we're out past bedtime, he will ask to go home and go to bed. If we have company late, he will ask them to leave.

Actually, both my kids, ages 6 and 1, go to bed at 8 or 8:30 (for summer) and stay there (except that the oldest now often has pressing questions that must be asked... after bedtime). I can't entirely explain this, but there it is.

[Amy]

My daughter was a TERRIBLE sleeper the first three years of her life. AWFUL. Then a little before her third birthday she started sleeping through the night. Now she's 5 and a wonderful sleeper, but not because of anything I did. I just think it has never even occurred to her to leave her bed once she's tucked in. Or call for me for any reason (except for the rare bad dream or extreme blanket tangle). The other night she fell out of bed and landed head-first and didn't even squawk before climbing back in bed and going back to sleep. I was SHOCKED when she told me about it in the morning.

When she was a baby we co-slept and I was always very quick to respond to whatever she needed (which was a lot). Now she just doesn't need anything from us once she's in bed. I think we just lucked out.

[ksmaybe]

I think the sleeping kids thing is at least 90% innate to the kid and not much you do will change it. I have one up at the butt crack of dawn kid. He is asleep within 10 minutes of being sent to bed now (took longer when he was younger, almost 4 now). Seriously. I put him in bed, take the younger one to my room to nurse and when I return to put her down in their shared room, he is out cold most nights. He goes to bed at 6:45. Because no matter when I put him to bed he will wake between 4:45 and 6, mostly at 5:15. The later he goes to bed, the earlier he wakes up. I'd put him to bed at 6 if I could figure out how to do that, but dinner, baths, everything just takes too long with 2. The younger one, down to bed at 7ish, doesn't fall asleep until close to 8. She talks to herself, plays with a book or 2 and her many furry friends. How it doesn't wake her brother I'll never know. She then sleeps until 7 most mornings. It took forever to get her to go to sleep before 9 pm and obviously it didn't last long as she is usually awake until 8. That's only because I wake her from her nap by 4 everyday. She would also love to nap from 1:30-4:30. She likes to sleep, but would prefer to do it at times completely incompatible with her brother. I've found her to be slightly more malleable than he, so that's where we are for now. The boy is like a rock. Nothing I do will alter his clock. He's just always been an early to bed early to rise guy....so unlike his parents!

[Lisa]

My five year old falls asleep within a few minutes of getting into bed, but is awake for the day at 5:15 am. My 3 year old plays with toys quietly for the most part once he is in bed, but doesn't fall asleep for a good 45 minutes. My 2 year old requires my presence in her bedroom for about 45 minutes, sometimes an hour and a half until she falls asleep.

All of my children are in my bed by 2 am. I give cuddles for a few minutes and walk the older two back to their beds, but they are both back in my bed by 5 am. The 2 year old comes into my bed around 2 and stays there till morning, otherwise she'd be cycling in and out of my bed/her room every 15 minutes.

I consider our current situation a vast improvement over the baby being in our bed all night long, which she considered an open invitation to nurse all night long. (Its a free all you can eat buffet, open 24 hours!) Thank heavens that's over. (Not that that is remotely similar to your situation.)

[Amy]

I have 3 kids (ages 6, 4 and 2) and yep, they stay in bed. Two year old goes down at 7 30, and the other two go down an hour later. They also stay in their rooms in the morning until I come get them. (We make an exception for weekends- I'd rather them go down to the family room and watch Disney Jr. than hear faint singing or lego building coming from their bedrooms. Gives me an extra hour, yay!!) I don't think it would occur to them to go "get Mommy". They're not allowed in our bedroom.

Not sure how it happened, have no clue how we did it, but I'm thrilled with it, and babysitters are too. (Easy nights for them!) And with #4 coming in 7 weeks, one less thing for me to worry about.

[Clarity]

I'm with Heather, my kids go and stay in bed but there's nothing terribly magical about it, I am just a piss poor parent after bedtime and they know it. I'm a kickass parent at 6 am but it's like I have an internal switch that gets flipped from "momma" to "not the momma" every evening at 8 and I am absolutely useless and remarkably heartless after that. If they come out for any reason they're met with a sharp look and a firmly voiced "What are you doing up?" and if it happens again that morphs into "GO TO FREAKING BED, it's 8:15 and I am done being a parent now."

My son's mood disorder means that at times he needs (or thinks he needs) virtually no sleep at all, but he still doesn't come out b/c he knows I won't be pleasant or understanding.

I think parents who have any patience or energy left at bedtime generally have more trouble getting their kids to bed, so I can recommend complete and total exhaustion as the cure-all trick. But it seems like you're already trying that so I'm not sure what to tell ya!

[Clarity]

Oh, and when mine went through the 'I'm thirsty, I'm hungry, I have to pee, my blanket is itchy' stage I'd make them responsible for doing whatever it was BEFORE they went to bed and if they didn't do it they were SOL. I'd ask before we got to their room "did you brush your teeth, get a drink, go potty, etc b/c you know once I shut that door you don't get any second chances, riiiiiight?" I remember a couple of nights where somebody cried themselves to sleep over something they supposedly forgot and I MIGHT have caved in once or twice and let a slacker run pee, but all in all they figured it out pretty darn quick.